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> Mercantile Bug Explained, teaser for my upcoming Economy Adjuster
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HotFusion4
post Yesterday, 01:48 PM
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Most people you have played MW for a while know about the so called "Mercantile bug." As your Mercantile skill increases, merchants' selling price goes down (which makes sense), but thier buying price also goes down (which doesn't make sense). The result is that a high Mercantile score is actually harmful, because you can only sell your treasure at a fraction of what a beginning character could. A common work-around for this is to create a 50 point Drain Mercantile spell, targeted on yourself, with a duration of one second, so that you can get normal prices for your goods again.

No more work arounds are necessary. I've found the source of the problem, and I have a solution. Here are some of my research notes:

CODE
   The following tables list what prices a merchant of a given skill was willing to offer for both the sale and purchase of a 100 septim pearl. Measurements were taken with a character with a Personality and Luck of 40.  Disposition was 45 in all cases.  The player's mercantile score was varied, as shown on the tables.




Merchant Mercantile 5
                           Buy Offer                 Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                            95                            54
40                            81                            67
60                            70                            70
80                            57                            57
100                           45                            45

Merchant Mercantile 20
                              Buy Offer             Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                           104                            45
40                            91                            58
60                            79                            70
80                            66                            66
100                           54                            54

Believe it or not, most merchants' Mercantile score range from between 5 and 20, so this data is representative of how commerce works for the majority of the game.  Notice how player mercantile scores of greater than 60 actually lead to a decrease in purchase offers.  This is the infamous "mercantile bug" (although we'll see in a moment that it's not really a bug with the mercantile skill itself).  Since the player spends a lot more time selling than buying, this means that a high mercantile score actually puts the player at a disadvantage, an annoying outcome.

Also, be aware that through haggling, you can easily alter the prices given above by about 10% in your favor.  This means that when the buy and sell prices are close together, the player can actually make money by simply trading the same item back and forth with the merchant, whom stupidly keeps buying the item at a higher price than he sells it.

Something interesting happens somewhere around a skill of 40.  The "mercantile bug" dissappears!  A higher merc score for the player always results in better prices when dealing with a reasonably skilled merchant. Check out these data:


Merchant Mercantile 40
                           Buy Offer                 Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                             123                          26
40                             110                          39
60                              98                          51
80                              85                          64
100                             73                          73



Conclusion:  To make mercantile a viable player skill, most merchants must have a minimum mercantile score of about 30-40.  Even this is probablt stilltoo low, however.  Notice that a player witha Mercantile of 100 can make a profit by buying and selling the same object to the merchant over and over, collecting the haggling difference each time.  No-one should be able to convince a merchant to do something that stupid, no matter how good his trading skills are.



Merchant Mercantile 60
                              Buy Offer             Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                             129                           20
40                             116                           33
60                             104                           45
80                              91                           58
100                             79                           70

At a skill 60, the merchant is starting to hold his own, although a PC with a skill of around 100 can still extort infinite money out of him by exploiting the back-and-forth bug, although it's certainly harder now.  Look waht happens at really high scores:

Merchant Mercantile 80
                            Buy Offer                Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                             141                            8
40                             129                           20
60                             116                           33
80                             104                           45
100                             91                           58

Merchant Mercantile 100
                              Buy Offer            Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                             154                          1
40                             141                          8
60                             129                          20
80                             116                          33
100                            104                          45


At the higher end of the skill scale, the merchant becomes a brutal businessman.  No amount of haggling can force the merchant to buy and sell at a loss.  A truly skilled PC can force the merchant to meet him midway in the price range, but beginning PCs will be blown out of the water.

Conclusions:   The so-called "mercantile bug" was really just a result of the NPCs mercantile scores being entirely too low.  A minimum score of about 30 is neccessary to avoid the mercantile bug, but higher values are desirable, becasue they eliminate the back-and-forth bug, and generally make the merchants sharper businessmen.  However, it is also desirable to still have a substantial number of weaker merchants, or beginning PCs will never be able to get up off the ground.


The effects of Disposition were also measured.  The same skill 100 merchant was tested again, this time after having had his diposition raised to 100:


Merchant Mercantile 100   Disposition 100

                             Buy Offer                Sell Offer
PC Merc.
20                            120                           30
40                            107                           42
60                             95                           67  
100                            70                           70

The effects are similar to what would have happend if the merchant had lost about 60 points off of his skill.  Notice that it is now possible for the player to extort an infinite amount of money out of the merchant by trading a single item backa and forth.

Merchants can be protected from persuasion and bribery by raising their Speechcraft scores.  Currently, their Speechcraft scores are entirely too low, and even a begginning character can generally admire most merchants in abject helplessless.  This is bad for both the economy, and for the Speechcraft skill itself (if you can accomplish just about anything with a Speechcraft skill of 40, why would anyone ever take it as a primary skill?).

When the player's Speechcraft skill is equal to the merchant's, the PC can generally push the Disposition up to about 60, which isn't so bad.  

The effects of bribery were investigated.  The merchant was granted a mercantile and speechcraft skill of 100.  The PC, with a meager speechcraft skill of 20, was able to consistantyl bribe the merchant to 100, oftentimes using only 10 septim bribes.  The merchant never declined a 1000 spetim bribe.

It is a bit strange that a merchant would accept a one-time bribe to permanently lower his prices by about 33%.  Bribery is simply too powerful as written.

The effectiveness of bribery can be altered in the Game settings menu. The gamesettings fBribe10Mod, fBribe100Mod, and fBribe1000Mod were lowered from 35, 75 and 150 to 20, 40, and 60.  Bribery is still an effective and valuable tool, but it is no longer a magic carpet.  It can be used to modestly improve disposition with someone who has a similar Speechcraft skill as the player, but it cannot be used to lull an equally skilled merchant into abject submission.


I'd like to give credit to Patrograd2, who was the first person to doa quantitative study of the effects of Mercantile and Speechcraft, and who inspired me to do my own study.

The lessons learned from this research will be incorporated into my upcoming Economy Adjuster mod. Here's the thread that started the idea:

Old Economy Thread

The plug-in will be modular, and will include more than just a fix for the merchants. The components will include:

Merchant
-Makes the NPC merchants much better businessmen. Mercantile and Speechcraft become important skills for the player. Faction alliances (and the disposition bonuses that come with them) become extremely important.
-Makes bribery harder
-removes the diposition bonus for a successful barter

Ingredients
-Rescales the prices of most ingredients to a more sensible standard.
-Reduces the commonality of pearls

Crime
-Makes criminal penalties much more severe
-Reduces discount for using theive's guild connections to pay off a bounty

Treasure
-Makes glass, ebony, and daedric weapon drops significantly more rare

Miscellaneous
-Alters the value of items taken from the fighter and mage guild chests to 0
-Reduces the value of player-made potions to zero
-Increases the cost of training
-removes the barter options from Creeper and the Mudcrab Merchant

The plug-in is actually complete, but I want to re-write the merchant component. Currently, it alters the Speechcraft and Mercantile scores of every merchant in the game, which is a very crude and intrusive method. I'm going to re-write it so that the changes are handled by script. The script will use global variables, so that you can change the difficulty setting by typing just a few lines into the console. This will also eliminate conflict issues.

This post has been edited by HotFusion4: Yesterday, 01:48 PM
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yakueb
post Yesterday, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE(HotFusion4 @ Feb 3 2005, 01:48 PM)
-Reduces the value of player-made potions to zero
*



I don't like that at all. I have an Alchimist PC that lives of the potions he makes (NOM) .

I know that their is a bug that allows you to exploit fortify intelligance, but NOM fixis this by changing ash yam's effects.

I love everything else about this mod, but perhaps offer a version that does not remove player made potion value.

Seriously, I will download it, because it is awesome except that one thing.


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Stromgarde
post Yesterday, 02:36 PM
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Thanks for the detailed analysis and for working on a modular version. I'm looking forward to your revised Merchant component. I might try the others, too, although I suspect at least some of them will conflict with other things I'm already using.


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Raveren
post Yesterday, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE(yakueb @ Feb 3 2005, 08:05 PM)
I love everything else about this mod, but perhaps offer a version that does not remove player made potion value.
*



that's wat modullar plugin!!


great research, but still incompatibilities will arise and some (of the mudules) seem to me irrational.


-Rescales the prices of most ingredients to a more sensible standard.
is incompatible with sris alchemy
-removes the barter options from Creeper and the Mudcrab Merchant
I don't feel like it
-Reduces the value of player-made potions to zero
sris alchemy has another method to avoid exploitation of this skill - it changes fortify intelligence ingredients effects to other.


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_Tarnsman_
post Yesterday, 03:34 PM
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Being one that favors realism over the desire for easy gold, I'm all for your mod. Eagerly await its release. Now if someone would come up with a way to limited the homebrewed potions from being so uber. I mean with master equipment, a enchanted ring increasing your alchemy skill, a few intelligence boosting potions and presto! you have potions whose attributes dwarf those of the best in game potions.


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HotFusion4
post Yesterday, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE
great research, but still incompatibilities will arise and some (of the mudules) seem to me irrational.


The explict rationales for each change are documented in the individual readmes. I had a reason for every change that I made.

QUOTE
-Rescales the prices of most ingredients to a more sensible standard.
is incompatible with sris alchemy


Possibly, but I could just as easily say that Sri's alchemy isn't compatible with my mod, instead of the other way around. I don't consider necessary mod conflicts to be inherent flaws in a mod's design.

QUOTE
-removes the barter options from Creeper and the Mudcrab Merchant
I don't feel like it


Don't use that part, then. Creeper and Mudcrab seriously break the game's economy. That's why they're neutered.

QUOTE
-Reduces the value of player-made potions to zero
sris alchemy has another method to avoid exploitation of this skill - it changes fortify intelligence ingredients effects to other.


No. Sri's alchemy prevents you from creating massive uber potions. It does nothing to prevent alchemy from becoming an infinte money pump. A player with even a modest alchemy skill can go to a merchant, buy a few reagents for about 10 septims, turn them into potions, and then sell them back for 200+ septims apiece. Totally broken, since you can quickly make inifinte money at no risk and very little time.


_Tarnsman_: A guy named Beancounter on the old forums found a way to weaken the power of homemade potions by altering a few game settings. I'll see if I can find the mod.
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Raveren
post Yesterday, 04:11 PM
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no offence intended, a great mod no doubt...

Sris alchemy also makes the alchemists to no longer have infinite amounts of ingrediaents and that stops you from making alchemy skill a money pump!

QUOTE
Possibly, but I could just as easily say that Sri's alchemy isn't compatible with my mod, instead of the other way around. I don't consider necessary mod conflicts to be inherent flaws in a mod's design.


I was implying a compatibility patch

QUOTE
_Tarnsman_: A guy named Beancounter on the old forums found a way to weaken the power of homemade potions by altering a few game settings. I'll see if I can find the mod.


I think I know of this, he messed with the gmsts and made the potions greater in power and shortened their duration, the price remained intact (or did it became zero)


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HotFusion4
post Yesterday, 04:45 PM
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/*
QUOTE(Raveren @ Feb 3 2005, 03:11 PM)
no offence intended, a great mod no doubt...


None taken.

QUOTE
Sris alchemy also makes the alchemists to no longer have infinite amounts of ingrediaents and that stops you from making alchemy skill a money pump!
I was implying a compatibility patch


Ah! I see what you meant now. I didn't know that Sri did that to the merchant's inventories.

As far as a compatibility patch goes... maybe.

Many modders are people pleasers, which is fine. They mod primarily because they enjoy giving other people things that they want. I'm a bit different. I make mods primarily because no existing mods does what I want at the time. There's no harm in sharing my personal toys with other people, so I'm more than happy to upload my stuff, but as a rule, I don't do mod-work that I won't be using myself.

Since I don't use Sri's alchemy (although I think that it's a fine mod), a patch wouldn't enhance my own game. Therefore, I don't feel at whole lot of motivation a do the extra work. I'll take a look and see how much effort would be required. If there isn't too much overlap, I will probably make a patch. If it would require more than a few hours, then I probably won't.
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Taurusaud
post Yesterday, 05:41 PM
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There is another bug that you haven't addressed here with mercantile~

when attempting to bribe an NPC, if at first the NPC doesn't accept, all you need to do is keep clicking offer until they do accept it. This needs to be fixed as well.

EDIT: this happens because the game assigns a random percentage chance that the NPC will accept the offer at any given value. Thus if you keep clicking offer, even without changing the value, sooner or later they accept. It makes the game stupid.

This post has been edited by Taurusaud: Yesterday, 05:42 PM


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mercurybard
post Today, 12:01 AM
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It would be nice if you also released a plugin just correcting the "mercantile bug". I'm kinda found of my Creeper.


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fable2
post Today, 12:22 AM
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Hotfusion, I like it all. By all means, do release it. I'll be among the first to use it. Please put it up on TESmods, and Summit: I check 'em out daily, and your mod sounds exactly like the kind of anti-cheese economic mod I've been looking for, for some time.
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post Today, 12:33 AM
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Excellent work and research, HotFusion! :thumbsup:


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fable2
post Today, 09:43 AM
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The plug-in is actually complete, but I want to re-write the merchant component. Currently, it alters the Speechcraft and Mercantile scores of every merchant in the game, which is a very crude and intrusive method. I'm going to re-write it so that the changes are handled by script. The script will use global variables, so that you can change the difficulty setting by typing just a few lines into the console. This will also eliminate conflict issues.

Do you have a timeline on this? Just curious.
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Sir_John
post Today, 12:03 PM
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When you say that pearls will be less common in your mod, do you mean that they will be less frequently sold by merchants or less frequently generated in shells? Also, how much less common will pearls be?
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BlindEye
post Today, 12:21 PM
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I have two mods on Tesmods that address Alchemy exploits and bribe exploits.

Blindeye's Non Profit Alchemy & Blindeye's Bribery.

This post has been edited by BlindEye: Today, 12:22 PM
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Davbninja
post Today, 12:27 PM
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hmm, so let me get this straight, if i dont like some part of the mod, then i can just shut it off, or what?


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PirateLord
post Today, 01:47 PM
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Is it possible to script it that when a player levels up, all traders skills are increased.
That way, to start with, everything is a bargin, but as you get better and more "famous" traders get better too.


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HotFusion4
post Today, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE(fable2 @ Feb 4 2005, 08:43 AM)
Do you have a timeline on this?  Just curious.


A week, maybe less. The original Merchantfix module simply altered every merchant's Mercantile and Speechcraft scores. That's a very dirty way of going about it, and is also uncustomizable. I'm rewriting so that a script does the changes instead. That way, no conflicts will occur, because the NPC reference data is never actually touched by the esp itself. Also, by typing a few lines into the console, you can alter the settings in runtime. You can set how points each merchant recieves in each skill per level of the merchant, the minimum allowed score, and the maximum allowed score. You can create separate settings for both Mercantile and Speechcraft. You can reinialize the numbers at any time by re-runnng the script.

What I'm doing right now is writing a giant script that looks something like this:

"merchant1"-> do this
"merchant2"-> do this
etc.

Long, tedious work.

QUOTE("Sir_John")
  When you say that pearls will be less common in your mod, do you mean that they will be less frequently sold by merchants or less frequently generated in shells? Also, how much less common will pearls be?


Less frequently generated by Kollop shells. The current rate is 50%, which is way too high. A causal stroll along a riverbank frequently nets about 300-600 septims. Ten percent seems like a more reasonable number. Pearl diving is still profitable, but it isn't a magic carpet to wealth anymore.

QUOTE("Davbninja")
It's modular.  As in divided into separate esps.


QUOTE("PirateLord")
  Is it possible to script it that when a player levels up, all traders skills are increased.
That way, to start with, everything is a bargin, but as you get better and more "famous" traders get better too.


I considered that, but your leve and your Mercantile scores aren't neccessarlily related. It is quite possible to increases one without increasing the other. If you want the challenge to scale, you can alter the settings as you level up and reinitialize the script.



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lyobovnik
post Today, 03:51 PM
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I'd rather instead of one huge script addressing each NPC merchant, you made four Mercantile skill classifications (Incompetent, Mediocre, Skilled, Master), wrote one generic script that modifies the merchant's skill based both on HIS character level and the Player's skill, and put this script on each Merchant. Something like "If my level is 10, I'm Mediocre. And if the player has Mercantile 20, since I'm Mediocre and he is Incompetent, I'll respond to his offers in such-and-such a way."

If you don't want to touch the NPCs in the editor, perhaps you can do it through Dialog, with a greeting that detects merchant class activating the script as a "targeted script" affectin the NPC.

The script could apply your math and discoveries to each skill group in a different way.

EDIT
Missed adding a line

This post has been edited by lyobovnik: Today, 03:56 PM


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HotFusion4
post Today, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE(lyobovnik @ Feb 4 2005, 02:51 PM)
I'd rather instead of one huge script addressing each NPC merchant, you made four Mercantile skill classifications (Incompetent, Mediocre, Skilled, Master), wrote one generic script that modifies the merchant's skill based both on HIS character level and the Player's skill, and put this script on each Merchant.  Something like "If my level is 10, I'm Mediocre.  And if the player has Mercantile 20, since I'm Mediocre and he is Incompetent, I'll respond to his offers in such-and-such a way."

If you don't want to touch the NPCs in the editor, perhaps you can do it through Dialog, with a greeting that detects merchant class activating the script as a "targeted script" affectin the NPC.

The script could apply your math and discoveries to each skill group in a different way.



I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If you want to custom-scale the merchant's skills according to your level or his level, or both, just alter the min/max/slope settings and reinitialize the script.

Altering a merchant's greeting dialogue is likely to break several quests, and conflict severely with other mods. Also, it would be much. much more work.
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lyobovnik
post Today, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE(HotFusion4 @ Feb 4 2005, 03:05 PM)
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  If you want to custom-scale the merchant's skills according to your level or his level, or both, just alter the min/max/slope settings and reinitialize the script.

Altering a merchant's greeting dialogue is likely to break several quests, and conflict severely with other mods. Also, it would be much. much more work.
*


Well, I apologize if that idea is not of much use to you. The only reason I offered an idea is that I wanted to be helpful to you. I know most people want small scripts, and functional transparency - not big scripts, and having to open the console a lot. So I suggested a self-adjusting script that
A.] Identifies how good a merchant should be based on his character level
B.] Adjusts the merchant's skill based on the relationship between the factors you identified, but making low-level merchants not quite as good as high-level merchants
C.] Does not have to identify every NPC Merchant individually, rather detects if someone is a merchant when you talk to them, then does its thing.

About quest conflict, that is possible, but I would think that that is avoidable without abandoning this approach.

About level of effort, No. Not more work. Here at my job, I typed up a script in a few minutes that seemed to do the job just fine; I guess you won't be needing that. But it's your party - mod how you want to.


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HotFusion4
post Today, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE(lyobovnik @ Feb 4 2005, 03:31 PM)
Well, I apologize if that idea is not of much use to you.  The only reason I offered an idea is that I wanted to be helpful to you.  I know most people want small scripts, and functional transparency - not big scripts, and having to open the console a lot.  So I suggested a self-adjusting script that
A.] Identifies how good a merchant should be based on his character level
B.] Adjusts the merchant's skill based on the relationship between the factors you identified, but making low-level merchants not quite as good as high-level merchants
C.] Does not have to identify every NPC Merchant individually, rather detects if someone is a merchant when you talk to them, then does its thing.


The script already does A and B. Item C isn't possible, outside of making a comprehensive list of every NPC that has the barter option enabled, which is what I'm doing right now.



QUOTE
About level of effort, No.  Not more work.  Here at my job, I typed up a script in a few minutes that seemed to do the job just fine;


I was talking about altering the greeting dialogue of all 389 merchant NPCs, not about writing a script. Scripting is a relatively low-effort approach, which is why I'm attacking the problem from that angle.

I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing anymore. I think that some sort of mis-communication is occurring.
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