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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 01:16 AM
Post #101


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QUOTE
Redoran miners (???)...

Egg Miners. The PC has to cure the blighted mine or somesuch and then recruit two eggminers to work the mine. They are recruited but never show up at the mine and are not disabled at their original locations.

QUOTE
Pet peeve (might be OT) is the individuals who roam around outside of the Daedric ruins with absolutely no specific dialog as to why they are there.

Noted and added.

QUOTE
Absolutely no one at Ghost Gate has the slightest clue that anything is amiss after Vivec lays out the plan for conquest of Red Mountain. No changes in dialog whatsoever if I remember right

Noted and added. There is a small mod on Gamer's Roam that adds more armigers to ( external ) ghostgate and a few armiger corpses inside the gate, but no major dialog changes or behaviour changes. MW uses BINK files format for the movies so it actually could be possible to do something like you suggest. Easy enough to trigger the movies too. It strikes me as funny that most of the Armigers act like there is not even a war going on.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 4 2004, 01:17 AM
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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 01:34 AM
Post #102


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QUOTE(PirateLord @ Oct 3 2004, 11:31 AM)
Regarding Moonsuger/Skooma, is it possible to have the NPC react in a way if you offer it for sale? So that actually putting it under their noses and saying, "how much?" becomes a crime.
*



It would be possible in dialog under the services refusals to add a crime bounty for trying to sell drugs. The game only recognizes a few crimes in the hardcode, but dialog and scripting would allow other behaviours to get a bounty applied to the PC, and it is the existence of a bounty that triggers some guard and ordinator behaviours.
The service refusal thing pre-empts the PC from even offering an item to a merchant, now if you offer to sell back to a merchant an item that has his ownership tag on it ( stolen goods ) then the barter will proceed and only after the window closes does all hell break loose, and that is hard coded. But it should be easy to model a "sting" type behaviour. Some merchants who would do the deal and then rat the PC out to the authorities.
So the game can stop an action before it even starts ( service refusal)
and it can react to an action once completed ( selling his own goods back to the merchant you stole them from or the guild if his guild owned the goods ).
The only way the game reacts to offering goods that a merchant doesn't deal is as happens if you offer to sell a sword to Jobasha, you get a messagebox saying "I don't deal that."
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neredyll
post Oct 4 2004, 01:49 AM
Post #103


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I remember that I found somewhere a Skooma pipe and I never found any more relation with the game. i cannot
remember where or the name of the owner who appared in the game.
My compliments to you,it's agood idea for starting some new mods.


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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 01:52 AM
Post #104


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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 3 2004, 11:32 AM)
It might be possible to trick the game into thinking that you stole Moonsugar/Skooma from every merchant in the game, so if you tried to sell it to them, they'd get pissed... but they'd call you a thief...
*


Ownership:
An item ingame can have 4 different types of ownership:

( go to any cell in editor and select it in the cell view window, look at the list of objects in the cell. Select an object that has a non blank ownership and double click on that object.
The cell will load with that object already selected. Double click on the object itself and its data sheet will open. The bottom half of the data sheet REFERENCE DATA is where ownership and conditional ownership can be assigned.)

Unowned: Ingame the item does not have the ownership tag in the extra data section filled in.
Owned absolutely by someone: Item has some specific NPC as its owner but does not have the global variable condition filled in in the extra data section in its ingame instance.
Owned but Rentable/useable: Owned by someone and does have the Global filled in. This is how bed renting works ingame. And how my 50homes and a guar mod is able to work. Containers have ownership, but if a global is filled in then it is just like renting only without the time limit when the global gets set to 1.
Owned by a Faction: In this case, the ownership of the thing is set to one of the factions in the extra data and use of the thing can be restricted to whatever rank and above that one desires.

Long winded way to answer your question; which is basically we can't, but we could come close.
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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 01:55 AM
Post #105


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QUOTE(neredyll @ Oct 3 2004, 12:09 PM)
I remember that I found somewhere a Skooma pipe and I never found any more relation with the game. i cannot
remember where or the name of the owner who appared in the game.
My compliments to you,it's agood idea for starting some new mods.
*



There are many loose skooma pipes laying around.
There is also Tsiya's skooma pipe outside Balmora on some corpse A wierd little quest. You have to ask her about someone in specific to get the quest result.
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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 02:10 PM
Post #106


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QUOTE(DoomedMarauder @ Oct 3 2004, 11:32 AM)
Like I said, not worth a major fix. But nothing will ever stop me from depositing a little pile of moonsugar at their feet and leaving it there. I can be petty too. LOL
*


You are right about the weird moonsugar and skooma distribution.
Part of it is because MS and SK are ingreds and potions and show up in levelled lists that are included in the containers that some NPC traders control, but part of it is pure hypocrisy. Traders who have MS or SK in their direct inventories but refuse to deal with you if you have it in yours. Mostly I found this in Telvanni town publicans and traders, and in the two tradehouses in Suran. I would guess that this is actually intentional on the part of the devs.
Oh and an interesting discovery, Wulf is a sugarhead. The old Tiber Septim avatar is holding. Now you know that had to be intentional on the devs part.
There are many little hypocrisies in the game.
But it could be modified too. Trader's could be turned into snitches/rats if one wanted to make the crime system more rigourous and make dealing/using/possessing more "american" or traders could be made to ignore the situation entirely ... a bit more "dutch/russian/columbian" in approach to the mind altering experience.
It is quite easy using service refusals to fine tune the economics system of MW....merchants who don't stock repair items/armourers who don't sell their tools, making some items an actual monopoly for the EEC ( ebony, glass, dwemer artifacts, pearls, sload soap, import items, limeware stuff ), and to turn smuggling and fencing into actual components of the game. Skooma pipes could be made contraband items. Guard's behaviours toward someone holding the utensil of drug usage could be as Draconian as one wanted.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 4 2004, 02:13 PM
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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 02:16 PM
Post #107


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To return to an earlier question, have any of you during the course of play had a bounty placed upon your character for using intimidation against an NPC.
According to the ingame advice on crimes and punishments, verbal assault ( intimidation ) is supposed to be a crime.
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 4 2004, 02:16 PM
Post #108


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I think it'd be interesting to have to go to certain smuggler NPC merchants to sell that type stuff. Maybe specific ones dealing in specific items, you'd figure an Ebony or Dwemer smuggler would require significant capital in order to aquire said items, maybe they'd actually be able to afford them... but then that leads to another issue in the game, which is the ease of aquiring vast amounts of money...


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Iudas
post Oct 4 2004, 03:13 PM
Post #109


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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 4 2004, 12:36 AM)
I think it'd be interesting to have to go to certain smuggler NPC merchants to sell that type stuff. Maybe specific ones dealing in specific items, you'd figure an Ebony or Dwemer smuggler would require significant capital in order to aquire said items, maybe they'd actually be able to afford them... but then that leads to another issue in the game, which is the ease of aquiring vast amounts of money...
*



Different issue with creating these kinds of merchants. The game is not granular enough to limit a merchant to just ebony and glass or drugs or just dwemer artifacts in the barter window. So it all has to be done with dialog based trading and service refusals.
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Cenobite
post Oct 4 2004, 03:56 PM
Post #110


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In my opinion, the easiest way to approach the skooma / moonsugar problem is this:

-- Eliminate all resistance of merchants from either trading in the stuff or in dealing with someone who has the stuff in possession. This is probably a better reflection of the black market in Morrowind than outright service refusal: everyone knows that drugs are illegal, and they may pay lip service to the Empire, but trade is so profitable that no merchant will turn away from it.

-- Severe bounties for being caught in possession of drugs. Not sure if this can be made to trigger simply by opening a conversation with a guard. (Perhaps even a proximity trigger. Maybe they can smell the stuff on you, like drug dogs.) Perhaps could even be extended to any conversation with any official, or noble, or flunky representative of state power. (Such as Temple functionaries.) Bounty is easy to compute: some factor of X times the street value of the total stash, plus a fixed base punitive fine.

With both of these in effect, gameplay should be more like RL. It's sick profit if you dare to trade in it, but being caught is serious time in the slammer.


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OldeCow69
post Oct 4 2004, 08:09 PM
Post #111


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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 4 2004, 12:17 AM)
Noted and thank you.
Wakim's Game Improvements addresses this and there is a new mod on the Summit that addresses Volendrung only.
Volendrung and I think Auriel's bow and shield?  Any others?
*


There's actually quite a few mods in this vien, Ronin49's Daggerfall Inspired Mods List provides a useful summary. Particularly relevant would be Lord Xeen's Artifacts 1.1, Daggerfall Artifacts by Chris, and Mad God's Hircine Ring.
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alexandrian_librarian
post Oct 5 2004, 06:41 AM
Post #112


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**skooma and moony:

yes, count me in, my number-one pet peeve is that even my master-of-stealth-with-100-sneak can't hide a single bloody vial of skooma on his person -- i can sneak up on you in broad daylight --from in front of you-- but i can't conceal one pink vial? grrr. also, i won't swear to this, but i'm pretty sure i've been stopped by guards for a different crime and that they have not confiscated my illegal skooma and sugar. i don't care about the hypocrisy factor, but i do care about the nuisance issue(s) w/the service refusals.

**speech:
i think the *only* time i've seen speech skills make a substantial difference is when you "sense" (or feel or think or something) that Hasphat Antabolis (gives Arkngthand quest, Balmora fight. guild bsmt) would tell you more (about Nchuleft?) if he liked you more, and if he does like you, he gives you the letter of introduction. Other disposition changes seem only to influence prices, services, and willingness to give you information that you can also get from different NPCs (however, i've never completed Tribunal and never played Bloodmoon, so if those are different...) those things all matter, but i think they're not substantial in that you can get around them simply by buying from/talking to other npcs who like you more.

what happens if you manage to make a quest-giver in your faction hate your guts? will they still give you chores?

i've never encountered crime issues w/intimidation, i'm annoyed enough by the way taunts (don't?) work, so i've never even tried intimidation. but i've also never played a character w/substatial speech skills because those skills seem way too broken (and boring at best) to bother specializing in. speech would be the boring task maybe needing a mini-game in TES IV, i got no probs w/alchemy process, but oh well...

This post has been edited by alexandrian_librarian: Oct 5 2004, 06:44 AM


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Iudas
post Oct 5 2004, 07:10 AM
Post #113


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QUOTE(alexandrian_librarian @ Oct 4 2004, 05:01 PM)
**skooma and moony:

yes, count me in, my number-one pet peeve is that even my master-of-stealth-with-100-sneak can't hide a single bloody vial of skooma on his person -- i can sneak up on you in broad daylight --from in front of you-- but i can't conceal one pink vial? grrr. also, i won't swear to this, but i'm pretty sure i've been stopped by guards for a different crime and that they have not confiscated my illegal skooma and sugar. i don't care about the hypocrisy factor, but i do care about the nuisance issue(s) w/the service refusals.

**speech:
i think the *only* time i've seen speech skills make a substantial difference is when you "sense" (or feel or think or something) that Hasphat Antabolis (gives Arkngthand quest, Balmora fight. guild bsmt) would tell you more (about Nchuleft?) if he liked you more, and if he does like you, he gives you the letter of introduction. Other disposition changes seem only to influence prices, services, and willingness to give you information that you can also get from different NPCs (however, i've never completed Tribunal and never played Bloodmoon, so if those are different...) those things all matter, but i think they're not substantial in that you can get around them simply by buying from/talking to other npcs who like you more.

what happens if you manage to make a quest-giver in your faction hate your guts? will they still give you chores?

i've never encountered crime issues w/intimidation, i'm annoyed enough by the way taunts (don't?) work, so i've never even tried intimidation. but i've also never played a character w/substatial speech skills because those skills seem way too broken (and boring at best) to bother specializing in. speech would be the boring task maybe needing a mini-game in TES IV, i got no probs w/alchemy process, but oh well...
*



shocking.gif pink vials ... the NPC's on Morrowind have a very high sensitivity to pink? Actually that intermittent telepathy of the morrowindinians is one of the "strange" things that are without workarounds. About guard confiscation of moonsugar and skooma, they will take it from you if it was stolen from someone in particular, ( if you steal the skooma in the crates in the C&EO office in Seyda Neen and then get a bounty on your head for some crime and are stopped they will take that skooma because the crates it is in are Owned by the C&EO.
Speechcraft is one of the most overpowered skills when it gets to high levels, but it is, as you point out, a bit of a chore to get it to high levels. NPC disposition effects every interaction the player has, and the way the game equations work, everything the PC does effects NPC disposition.

I have never tested what happens if you really perturb a quest giver.

Taunts work, but it takes high speechcraft to get them to almost always work in the PC's favour. There are two mods out that bend the taunt situation more in the PC favour. Apologize ( on the summit ) and Move ( by shanjaq).

As they stand right now, the service refusals for drug possession are more nuisance than they anything else. They are an attempt to give a little bit of granularity and control over specific items in the categories of items that merchants will buy. A merchant that is set to buy/sell potions has no choice but to buy or sell skooma because it is a potion. It's basically the same reason that one cannot make an arms dealer who only deals daedric weapons, or only enchanted weapons.

Service refusals are on the list. And if I can't find many more folks who have gotten a bounty on themselves for trying to intimidate someone, intimidation as a crime goes on the list too.
Taunting does work. ( if you want to see it work in your favor pick an NPC you want to taunt , open the console ~ key , type in Player ->modspeechcraft, 60 close the console, and taunt him. ) ( reopen console, typein Player ->modspeechcraft, -60 and then close the console again to get back to where you were ) The 60 is just an example number pick the number that would raise your speecchraft to 100.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 5 2004, 07:12 AM
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alexandrian_librarian
post Oct 5 2004, 07:28 AM
Post #114


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! stinky skooma idea- see below

QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 4 2004, 05:30 PM)
Taunts work, but it takes high speechcraft to get them to almost always work in the PC's favour.


yeah, i know that taunting works, it's just...boring, unless maybe you're good at speech as you pointed out. i tend just to avoid taunting anyone until i've got 50K or so. bribing by the 1000s gets those camonna tong 'bad people' to a disposition of 100, taunt until disp. is low, bribe by the 1000s again, etc. usually w/a personality of 40-50ish and a speech probably not higher than 25 or so, by the time i've spent 10K, i can get them to attack, and then just take the dough back.

i do think that guards should either always confiscate all your moonsugar and skooma no matter why they stop you -- maybe even if you have a morag tong writ -- or the dialogue should get changed.

what if skooma/moon sugar are not illegal per se, but are seen as horribly low-class? as tobacco has become in some places/circles -- not illegal for you to smoke, but i'm not selling you a movie ticket if you're puffing away. maybe dialogue could change to skooma and sugar being really, really stinky? and only khajjiti actually like the smell (maybe they stink like catnip gone bad), but some other NPCs will tolerate it to buy and sell it, while others won't -- but guards won't confiscate it.

(yes that leaves a "hole" where dropping and leaving the stinky behind doesn't ruin the NPC disposition or cause further service refusal, but maybe it's still an improvement?)


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Iudas
post Oct 5 2004, 07:58 AM
Post #115


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QUOTE
bribing by the 1000s ...

Bribery is one of the most overpowered things in the game and one of the least logical considering how much easy money there is on MW.
And anyone can bribe anyone. Really, given what the game tells us about the Dark Elves attitude towards "beast" races and then your Khajiit or Argonian or Orc character slip a 100 to some DE and she is your bestest buddy? Max bribe of 1000 won't even buy a decent weapon.

QUOTE
i do think that guards should either always confiscate all your moonsugar and skooma no matter why they stop you ...

Doable, small addition to guard greetings dialogs would handle this.
Using ForceGreeting with guards can really make crime and bounties a nasty thing too.

QUOTE
...as horribly low-class? as tobacco has become in some places...
Smoking is so low class now that only the truly rich can afford it. $80 a carton for smokes in NYC.
Funnily enough the way the service refusals are designed; the NPC traders, who won't buy SK and MS from any other race, will buy from you if your char is a Khajiit.
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Cenobite
post Oct 5 2004, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE(alexandrian_librarian @ Oct 4 2004, 05:48 PM)
yeah, i know that taunting works, it's just...boring, unless maybe you're good at speech as you pointed out. i tend just to avoid taunting anyone until i've got 50K or so. bribing by the 1000s gets those camonna tong 'bad people' to a disposition of 100, taunt until disp. is low, bribe by the 1000s again, etc. usually w/a personality of 40-50ish and a speech probably not higher than 25 or so, by the time i've spent 10K, i can get them to attack, and then just take the dough back.

Wow...that's a ton of work. I think I would rather just kill them, and pay the next guard that $1K as fines. Far simpler to learn Frenzy Humanoid, create a new spell of 100% to 100% effectiveness at the range of touch, and take out suckas that way. Which is, strictly speaking, another quirk of sorts. Even if you do kill someone in valid self-defense, is it realistic to expect that guards won't bother you or stop you or question you?


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DragoonWraith
post Oct 5 2004, 10:29 AM
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For those nay-sayers of Taunting, THAT thing is HUGELY overpowered. Just resize the Dialogue window so you can continuously click Persuasion -> Taunt. No need to bribe, as even someone with level 5 Speechcraft can Taunt a character with 0 Disposition after a short while. I've never spent more than thirty seconds taunting before getting in a completely legal fight. Because of this, it is extremely rare for me to ever get any bounty, as I can kill anyone I want by Taunting and I can steal whatever I want with Invisibility. Even my low level characters can break all the laws with impunity.


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Blinding light, bind my foes in unbreakable chains... Disperse the shadows! Ray of Paralysis!"
~Saradin Carm

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Iudas
post Oct 5 2004, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 4 2004, 08:49 PM)
For those nay-sayers of Taunting, THAT thing is HUGELY overpowered. Just resize the Dialogue window so you can continuously click Persuasion -> Taunt. No need to bribe, as even someone with level 5 Speechcraft can Taunt a character with 0 Disposition after a short while. I've never spent more than thirty seconds taunting before getting in a completely legal fight. Because of this, it is extremely rare for me to ever get any bounty, as I can kill anyone I want by Taunting and I can steal whatever I want with Invisibility. Even my low level characters can break all the laws with impunity.
*



So Taunting, and Bribery are outlandishly overpowered. And both are universally too easy to succeed at even for low speechcraft chars.
Intimidation doesn't appear to be a crime even though the game says it is a crime.
Admiration is a bore.
Service refusals for MS and SK are a nuisance instead of a real factor in gameplay.
Info refusals occur so infrequently that most folks never see one.
About 1/3rd of the NPC's have an alarm rating of 0 so they wouldn't report a crime in any case. ( found that today analyzing NPC data in excel ) And the alarm threshold is 93 feet around an NPC ( about 1/4 of a cell width ) if he has an LOS to the PC.
And that about covers the good parts of the persuasion topics?
And if one doesn't want to mess with speechcraft, the frenzy humoid, charm, calm humanoid, rally humanoid line of spells works just as well.
And they are cheap to buy and low cost to cast and they don't count as a magical attack either.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 5 2004, 12:15 PM
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 5 2004, 12:51 PM
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Well, the spells would be completely useless as spells if they agro'd people. And from my experience, Charm is VERY expensive and hard to cast, and they're all temporary (though I've sometimes had NPC's remain Calm after the spell wore off), so I think they're OK. The NPCs that don't report crimes need to be fixed, without a doubt. The rest I agree with.


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Blinding light, bind my foes in unbreakable chains... Disperse the shadows! Ray of Paralysis!"
~Saradin Carm

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Gren
post Oct 5 2004, 03:26 PM
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I don't think this has been mentioned, but apologies if it has--

I think it is in Mar Gaan--either 'latest rumors' or 'little advice'--you are told that help is needed killing things that have gotten outside the Ghostfence, and that one should talk to the shrine priests about it. Now, I have not tried *everything* to get hired to find the odd loose ash zombie, but I have tried to follow up on this rumor/bit of advice to no avail.


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Iudas
post Oct 5 2004, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE(Gren @ Oct 5 2004, 01:46 AM)
I don't think this has been mentioned, but apologies if it has--

I think it is in Mar Gaan--either 'latest rumors' or 'little advice'--you are told that help is needed killing things that have gotten outside the Ghostfence, and that one should talk to the shrine priests about it. Now, I have not tried *everything* to get hired to find the odd loose ash zombie, but I have tried to follow up on this rumor/bit of advice to no avail.
*


Added and thank you. Checked all those dialogs and there is no follow up either in MaarGan at the temple or the tradehouse or at GhostGate. An aside, there is a fine mod called Blight Bounties that addresses the blighted creature issue but not this specific dialog "incompleteness."
QUOTE
Well, the spells would be completely useless as spells if they agro'd people
True very true. Gives me an idea for a CE spell that casts charm, calm humanoid, and calm creature and has a 50 foot radius. Put that on a wizard's hat thumbsup.gif
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Cenobite
post Oct 6 2004, 02:21 AM
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One possible fix: what would happen if a mod increased the alarm of every NPC to 90?


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Leadf007
post Oct 6 2004, 02:38 AM
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I think the alarm radius should be alot tighter, yet the ratings higher. That is, if you're 100 feet away they're not going to notice you picking a lock. But if they're 20 feet away and within LOS, they WILL report you.


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ox!d
post Oct 6 2004, 02:43 AM
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"if you want to know about archery, you should go see Ian the Archer in ebonheart." ---> I'm ian! i'm also an archer !
i'm not black tough...
LOL

This post has been edited by ox!d: Oct 6 2004, 02:45 AM


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Iudas
post Oct 6 2004, 04:05 AM
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QUOTE(Cenobite @ Oct 5 2004, 12:41 PM)
One possible fix: what would happen if a mod increased the alarm of every NPC to 90?
*


QUOTE
One possible fix: what would happen if a mod increased the alarm of every NPC to 90?
All crimes become very difficult to commit unless you run around invisible/chameleoned all the time or sneak all the time.
Unless you:
QUOTE
I think the alarm radius should be alot tighter, yet the ratings higher. That is, if you're 100 feet away they're not going to notice you picking a lock. But if they're 20 feet away and within LOS, they WILL report you.
do something like this also.

QUOTE
"if you want to know about archery, you should go see Ian the Archer in ebonheart."
And he doesn't have anything unique to say about archery, or the marksman class techniques, or thrown weapons. And that is one of the reasons this thread began.
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shiva7663
post Oct 6 2004, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 5 2004, 06:44 AM)
Gives me an idea for a CE spell that casts charm, calm humanoid, and calm creature and has a 50 foot radius. Put that on a wizard's hat
*
That would probably only really work if it were scripted to pulse on over and over, since CE effects aren't continuous, they're just continual.
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shiva7663
post Oct 6 2004, 04:43 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 5 2004, 01:25 PM)
And he doesn't have anything unique to say about archery, or the marksman class techniques, or thrown weapons.  And that is one of the reasons this thread began.
*
I figure the best way to fix this kind of thing is to make sure that the major triggering topic words get included in that NPC's Hello and/or Greeting dialogues; then the rest would be available in followup dialogue. Worst case would be that addtopic calls would need to be added in Results for that NPC. Uh, was this mentioned before in this thread? It's kind of rambled a bit....
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alexandrian_librarian
post Oct 6 2004, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE(Cenobite @ Oct 4 2004, 07:26 PM)
Wow...that's a ton of work. I think I would rather just kill them, and pay the next guard that $1K as fines.


only problem with doing it that way is all my stolen property...too bad you can't bribe angry guards! (those camonna tong get away w/everything, why can't i?) i'll have to try the resize-dialogue-window suggestion.

on the realism question, whether guards should stop you even if it was self-defense, well, it's always an issue where you draw the realism line. (leaving out issues of magic entirely)

that is, think about a culture that maintains a well-armed militia/police force (as the guards are in m'wind) but that also lets anybody at all walk around a city as well armed, or better-armed, than the soldiers/cops. don't quote me on this, but i do think most urban civilizations have restricted the right to carry weapons to certain classes -- e.g., you have to be a samurai to carry a katana or other sword in feudal japan, if you're a peasant (or priest), it's supposed to be summary execution if you're found out. the 'wild west', even if you interpret it as hollywood did, is no exception -- the cops consisted of one sheriff or marshall and an occasional deputized posse, not a professional, disciplined, uniformed force like m'wind guards.

EDIT: i suppose it could be argued that in some american states, this applies today, but not really, cops still have assault weapons it's illegal for others to own, and if you read about black panthers in the 60s, it was one of their tactics to publicly carry guns exactly as they were allowed by law to do -- so some of them in cali drove around with shotguns pointed at the roof, with no shells chambered (or whatever it's called with shotguns, i'm not a guns guy) because that was illegal in a moving car. cops would stop these well-armed black men -- who were perfectly within their rights -- and when they got out of the car, as ordered, they would immediately chamber a shell, also perfectly within their rights. the hlaalu guards of california were never very friendly about this...it also led to the laws being changed [/edit]

all that being said, i agree w/just about everyone on this thread, and others i've read on the old forums, that crime and speech are poorly implemented, especially as they interact. anyone who tries *anything* to make speech-stuff work better deserves fudge, really good fudge, in my book.

that suggestion about alarm-ratings being both higher and tighter seems really interesting to me, and also like it would be very satisfying in the realism sense, that somebody who wasn't right on top of you wouldn't notice that you were picking a lock (how do they know you're not using your key?), but they would yell and scream if they did see you. hey, can you add a pre-emptive bribe option? "hey, buddy, if i give you 1000 gold will you walk away and turn your back for a minute? nevermind what i'm gonna do, it's not your house..."

This post has been edited by alexandrian_librarian: Oct 6 2004, 06:27 AM


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Cenobite
post Oct 6 2004, 08:59 AM
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Um. I forgot about that unpleasant bit where they also take away whatever stolen property is on your person. I guess it's been a long time since this thief was caught...

Good point about the arms level of civilians. In a normal peaceful civilized society, the citizens generally don't get arms, and the police may carry as many arms as they like. The fact that EVERYONE in MW goes everywhere armed leads me to believe that the situation is closer to the Wild West: civilization is half-realized at best, so the denizens of the frontier must prepare themselves for the pockets of lawlessness.

QUOTE(alexandrian_librarian @ Oct 5 2004, 04:41 PM)
that suggestion about alarm-ratings being both higher and tighter seems really interesting to me, and also like it would be very satisfying in the realism sense, that somebody who wasn't right on top of you wouldn't notice that you were picking a lock (how do they know you're not using your key?), but they would yell and scream if they did see you. hey, can you add a pre-emptive bribe option? "hey, buddy, if i give you 1000 gold will you walk away and turn your back for a minute? nevermind what i'm gonna do, it's not your house..."

That could backfire. Your average law-abiding citizen would take the money, nod in agreement...then turn tail and alert the authorities the second they were out of your sight.

Wandering into a mod topic --

Perhaps a "police reinforcement" mod is in order? Something to put in the 2 alarm rating changes, increase the number of guards, make them tougher overall?


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johnthepatriot
post Oct 6 2004, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE(Cenobite @ Oct 6 2004, 02:19 AM)
Good point about the arms level of civilians.  In a normal peaceful civilized society, the citizens generally don't get arms, and the police may carry as many arms as they like.  The fact that EVERYONE in MW goes everywhere armed leads me to believe that the situation is closer to the Wild West: civilization is half-realized at best, so the denizens of the frontier must prepare themselves for the pockets of lawlessness.
*



Actually... this is very close to fact. Even priests and friars carried weapons. It was not uncommon for people to have a dagger or other large knife just to eat supper! However... there were generally VERY stringent... guidelines... about swords and such. Local rulers didn't like the idea of their guards being outmatched by civilians any more than L.A.P.D. does. Gate guards would more often than not inspect and confiscate any 'contraband' they found on travellers. The Japanese had similar laws... note that the only real difference between a Samurai and a Daimyo was an official license from the Emperor.


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Cenobite
post Oct 6 2004, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE(johnthepatriot @ Oct 5 2004, 07:29 PM)
Actually... this is very close to fact.  Even priests and friars carried weapons.  It was not uncommon for people to have a dagger or other large knife just to eat supper!  However... there were generally VERY stringent... guidelines... about swords and such.  Local rulers didn't like the idea of their guards being outmatched by civilians any more than L.A.P.D. does.  Gate guards would more often than not inspect and confiscate any 'contraband' they found on travellers.  The Japanese had similar laws... note that the only real difference between a Samurai and a Daimyo was an official license from the Emperor.
*


Now that would make one spotted owl of a mod.

"All MW citizens found to be in the possession of a weapon, spell, or any other personal item, capable of inflicting more than 20 points of damage, shall have said item registered and licensed at the nearest Census and Excise Office. The licenses shall be valid for six months from the date of issue. Failure to comply shall be punishable by either imprisonment or fines, and the offending item confiscated."

-- Imperial Decree of the Duke of Morrowind, 6 Rain's Hand '14

That sure would add a ton of stuff to the Evidence Chests...


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DragoonWraith
post Oct 6 2004, 10:02 AM
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That would cause major issues for Mages... you can't exactly check a spell at the door.


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post Oct 6 2004, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 5 2004, 08:22 PM)
That would cause major issues for Mages... you can't exactly check a spell at the door.
*


Ah, that's true. I was mainly referring to scrolls.

Oh well. (throws that idea into the mental wastebasket)


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DragoonWraith
post Oct 6 2004, 10:10 AM
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Mm, as it would be unbalancing between the classes (weakens Warriors absurdly without their equipment, while Mages remain equally deadly, and Thieves equally effective).

Out of curiousity, I know the game says that Lockpicks and Probes are totally legal objects with a completely legal use to Locksmiths, but as there A) are no Locksmiths, to my knowledge, and B) the PC is definitely NOT a Locksmith... Shouldn't they be confiscated too?

This post has been edited by DragoonWraith: Oct 6 2004, 10:11 AM


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post Oct 6 2004, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 5 2004, 08:30 PM)
Out of curiousity, I know the game says that Lockpicks and Probes are totally legal objects with a completely legal use to Locksmiths, but as there A) are no Locksmiths, to my knowledge, and cool.gif the PC is definitely NOT a Locksmith... Shouldn't they be confiscated too?

That is also a good point.

In order to legally carry picks and probes, a char needs to be in the Locksmith class. This class comes with a license requirement, which also means that the char has to run a smith's shop.

Violators will be punished like anyone else found in the possession of a controlled substance.


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Leadf007
post Oct 6 2004, 11:01 AM
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No wait... how does the alarm rating work?

Cause if it works as a chance rating, I think everyone should have about a 75% chance to report you. The exception would be thieves in the guild, but not IN the guild, if you catch my drift... as in not around anything they themselves own. If it ain't theirs... fudge it, you're in the guild!

But with ratings lower, and closer in, it might be possible to shoplift a little bit now and again, but basically within reason. Like, make sure guards are placed somewhere near the REAL valuables, with an alarm rating of 100.

And how WOULD one go about making certain places off limits if you're within line of sight of a guard.

Would it be possible to place an "off limits sign" in some interiors that would activate if you're within a certain distance of it? Then make the owner NPC forcegreeting on you and tell you you're not allowed to go in? The script should fire every 5 seconds if you're not sneaking (theres a getsneak function, right?). So if you repeatedly ignore the forcegreeting, on the third time they tell you to get out of the store. AND if you don't leave after 10 seconds, they'll call the guards. as in summon them. As in they appear right there and cart you out, confiscating any illicit goods you might have (payfine does this I believe, but does not actually PAY a fine, just runs cleanup after you should have), basically disabling themselves afterwards and teleporting you outside the door.

I also imagine making the script activator "keep out signs" an actual keep out sign would be good. There could also be a second kind of sign (say at the top of the stairs representing where the actual "off limits zone". If the keep out sign "saw" you, this one would start the actual "get out" part of the program... followed by a friendly visit from the guards if you do not comply.

It might also be interesting if one could get the guards to actually follow you around the store if you're a middle rank in the thieves guild (but not high level cause you're a little too connected, or low level cause you're still unknown). Or for other reasons... but I can't think of any other game testable "suspicious behavior" that would be generic enough to work in coding and balancing it... hmm. The only problem in coding a guard following you around is, what happens when you change cells. Is there a surefire way to make them stay withing the store?

Maybe one kind of suspicious behavior would be (and I'm just throwing out some crazies here so don't take THIS part as a mod suggestion or anything) would be if you're already just stolen something from the store, but nobody saw you do it. Only have it activate like that if you're not high up in the guild, just stole something, weren't seen, but FAIL a random sneak call... As in, you did it well enough that you weren't seek, but still looked a bit suspicious.

But if you walk out of the store without putting whatever it was back, they follow you out the door and "arrest" you right then and there, as if you had just stolen the item... they take the item back, or you kill em... IN BROAD DAYLIGHT heee.gif

At least one of those ideas has to be plausable.

This post has been edited by Leadf007: Oct 6 2004, 11:18 AM


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post Oct 6 2004, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE
In a normal peaceful civilized society, the citizens generally don't get arms

MUHAHAHAHAHA the better armed a populace is the safer the society is and the more polite it is. It is when people are differentially disarmed that society starts to flounder. Most of the wild wild west was boring sodbusters, filthy hardworking cattle drovers and very tired famers and shopkeepers. But since those kind of jobs just don't sell tv time or penny dreadful magazines we get Billy the Kid and a few others and pretend that theirs was the standard of behaviour.
But you are right, the tax ticks and the control leeches do surely hate an armed populace.
QUOTE
No wait... how does the alarm rating work?
lower the rating the less likely an NPC is to voice an alarm or put a bounty on the PC's head for observed criminal behaviour...value runs from 0 to 100 and about 1/3 of the NPC's are at 0. It combines with one of the gamesettings that controls alarm radius ( 93.3 feet at the default ) so an NPC with a LOS to your behaviour, within 93.3 feet and with and alarm of 100 should always rat you out. ( stealth chameleon invisibility negate this )

QUOTE
That sure would add a ton of stuff to the Evidence Chests...

add a ton of guards and ordinators to the graveyards more likely. Not a bad thing.

QUOTE
Uh, was this mentioned before in this thread? It's kind of rambled a bit....

A specific methodology to address the lack of unique topics for the supposed unique informants for the various classes has not been put forward.
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post Oct 6 2004, 01:13 PM
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Better armed populace in Balmora, fort villages like Pelegiad or Caldera... but severely restricted in Vivec, the Holy City. Also restricted should be mournhold, and Gaenor should be arrested on the spot.


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post Oct 6 2004, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 5 2004, 09:35 PM)
MUHAHAHAHAHA the better armed a populace is the safer the society is and the more polite it is.  It is when people are differentially disarmed that society starts to flounder. 


um...afghanistan? pakistan? i'll leave out iraq since there we're talking about a place that's actively at war. but life in those 'stans -- as well as yemen, lebanon...is less polite and safe than in the u.s. for a less extreme example, mexico -- it's more or less safe, if you figure that when armed bands hold up busses at night (busses being the major travel option there) they rarely harm anyone, just take their stuff. these are all places where the populace are about as well-armed as the gummint is. but you're absolutely right about them sodbusters and the penny dreadfuls.


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Iudas
post Oct 6 2004, 10:25 PM
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So going through this thread, it appears that we have some consensus on things that are incomplete, unintentionally ambiguous,
unintentionally contradictory in the dialogs that might stand a bit of correction.

We have several NPC's and topics that look like they should lead somewhere but don't.

And several situations where dialogs should change markedly in response to MQ happenings but don't.

We have several areas of the game that are felt to be poorly implemented but without a consensus on how or even if they could be addressed. Crimes and crime deterrence/punishment being high on the list, service refusals and the whole drug thing being also "high" on the list.

And a few things omitted, that would make the game more ... immersive. 6 missing ALMSIVI intervention markers, 1 missing Divine, at least 1 missing jail marker.

The whole persuasion area appears to have issues.

The cross membership in the religions is open to several simple modifications depending on how one views the liberality of the ingame religions. As is the Telvanni/Mage's guild cross membership situation.

Several areas of lore accuracy in weapons ( and I would assume also armour ) exist but already have multiple mods that address them.

And three new things added to my list: There are NO exquisite gloves, all the small chests use only two models, and none of the
new capabilities introduced in Trib or BM have been back ported to MW: e.g. 4 guars in MW that could have the share capability added, loads of places where the trib traps would fit seamlessly, the MW EEC still dont belong to the EEC faction.

Not a bad list of things to attack



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post Oct 6 2004, 11:25 PM
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I especially like your ideas on backwards porting the Trib and BM things to MW. Great idea, that in itself would be awesome!


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post Oct 7 2004, 12:15 AM
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Yes, this game could use some polish.


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post Oct 7 2004, 01:12 AM
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Wow, that is quite an exhaustive list of projects. Any modder looking for something to tinker with, should keep a copy of this list handy.

Excellent summary of this thread, btw Iudas. fing34.gif

(still waiting to playtest Thirty Homes)


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Iudas
post Oct 7 2004, 07:45 PM
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A quick scan of the threads today added two more things that are incomplete in MW:
Daedric crescent, the in game infor says all these were confiscated and destroyed. Of course the PC can get one if he follows a minor quest in Tel Fyr. But after the PC has one, NO ONE accosts him or attacks him or trys to arrest him for sporting the only "illegal" weapon in MW. The Imperials made this one weapon illegal after the incident at Battlespire 2 games ago. Certainly at the least, the DISP of Imperials should take a marked decline if you are carrying this weapon, the guards should probably forcegreet you with the famous HALT HALT.

The justice system in MW .... not the crime/punishment part but the actual administrators/jurists. No lawyers, no judges, no jailers, no real legal basis other than a list of things that might be crimes.

I would have had more but most of yesterday was spent playing patient in the dentist's chair ... In all the threads over the whole lifeof the boards I have never seen anyone request a dentist mod for MW. I suspect somethings just can't be realistically recreated.
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post Oct 8 2004, 03:13 AM
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One more exasperating facet of the game--when I buy something from an armorer and pay a price he likes, his attitude toward me goes up a point. When I pay the same armorer over a thousand drakes to repair my armor, his opinion of me doesn't change at all. It's one of those things I always mean to get around to tweaking in a mod for myself.

Another spot that could stand some fixing: Citizens of the towns don't know each other at all! They all give the same tired answer to "someone in particular", and there's no option to ask them about even their nearest neighbors. If I want to talk to Tsiya about that strange thing I found outside town, I have to go from house to house until I open the right door. Not very realistic, if you ask me. A town as small as Balmora should be an endless hotbed of gossip--every person in town should have the scoop on just about everyone else. Maybe Nalcarya doesn't know about the petty snipings going on between Ajira and Galbedir, but the mages' neighbors in the Fighters' Guild almost certainly would have heard at least small explosions from next door, as someone's spell went awry or a potion blew up. At the very least, they should recognize names and/or comment on "that Wood Elf who's always lounging around in fine silk". People know more about their town and their neighbors than the current in-game dialogue provides for.
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post Oct 8 2004, 03:18 AM
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Good point about armor purchase vs. armor repair. If that can be tweaked...perhaps also adjust the smith's disposition downwards if the player buys any repair tools?

QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 7 2004, 06:05 AM)
I would have had more but most of yesterday was spent playing patient in the dentist's chair ... In all the threads over the whole lifeof the boards I have never seen anyone request a dentist mod for MW.  I suspect somethings just can't be realistically recreated.
*


I think they already exist in MW. Those Repair Prongs look way too much like teeth-pulling pliers to me. "If it hurts, it'll have to come out." "You want some knockout gas?" (holds up a steel mace)


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post Oct 8 2004, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 6 2004, 06:45 AM)
So going through this thread, it appears that we have some consensus on things that are incomplete, unintentionally ambiguous,
unintentionally contradictory in the dialogs that might stand a bit of correction.

We have several NPC's and topics that look like they should lead somewhere but don't.

And several situations where dialogs should change markedly in response to MQ happenings but don't.

We have several areas of the game that are felt to be poorly implemented but without a consensus on how or even if they could be addressed.  Crimes and crime deterrence/punishment being high on the list, service refusals and the whole drug thing being also "high" on the list.

And a few things omitted, that would make the game more ... immersive. 6 missing ALMSIVI intervention markers, 1 missing Divine, at least 1 missing jail marker.

The whole persuasion area appears to have issues.

The cross membership in the religions is open to several simple modifications depending on how one views the liberality of the ingame religions.  As is the Telvanni/Mage's guild cross membership situation.

Several areas of lore accuracy in weapons ( and I would assume also armour ) exist but already have multiple mods that address them.

And three new things added to my list:  There are NO exquisite gloves, all the small chests use only two models, and none of the
new capabilities introduced in Trib or BM have been back ported to MW: e.g.  4 guars in MW that could have the share capability added, loads of places where the trib traps would fit seamlessly, the MW EEC still dont belong to the EEC faction.

Not a bad list of things to attack
*


You forgot one thing, the porcelin throne. The johns. NOM make sus eat, but what happens to it after that. Do all of MW not poop?


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post Oct 8 2004, 03:27 AM
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QUOTE(Xyber02 @ Oct 7 2004, 01:45 PM)
You forgot one thing, the porcelin throne. The johns. NOM make sus eat, but what happens to it after that. Do all of MW not poop?
*


Well, that would explain why the land is so bad for farming, right? No fertilizer. rolleyes.gif


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post Oct 8 2004, 04:27 AM
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in addition to the point about the smiths and disposition, i've certainly gone through side quests for seriously ungrateful bastard ingrates -- e.g., i saved your wife from being killed by daedra cultists and you still have a less than 50 disposition to me?

also, there's an imperial legion guy also held hostage by cultists, and if you rescue him w/o being in the legion, just in the course of looting the shrine, your journal gets updated as having solved that quest -- but he still doesn't like you! maybe *that* one makes sense, and it's been so long since the one character i had join the legion that i don't remember if he likes you more if you are in the legion. still, i think helping desperate people out of their desperate circumstances should bring you gratitude, at least if you were actually enlisted into the quest -- that is, maybe if you "accidentally" rescue someone, like by just unlocking a door in a shrine you were looting, they have only a tiny disposition boost. but no matter what your racial/faction affiliations, when you free a slave, they like you a lot more -- when somebody enlists you in rescuing their spouse (or other, similar quest), that should mean as much to them, or almost so, as it does to a slave when you unlock their bracer -- after all, a slave wearing a bracer *can* still run away (e.g., the argonian hiding out in the basement of the argo mission in ebonheart and at least one another argo runaway), but those guys missing their wives yell and scream like the lady will be dead in five minutes if you don't help.

and of course if someone got really really ambitious, i've wondered since the very first time i played and freed all the slaves in that smuggler's cave in seyda neen, then i rested there and got attacked (and, sniff, sob, got killed) by a dark brother -- why are all these ungrateful bastards not helping me at all? "beast race" is right!

oh, and people have made toilet/outhouse mods, though i don't know to what extent they've added functional "activity" for them. i'm guessing that would be a miscellaneous skill...


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post Oct 8 2004, 05:01 AM
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Trouble with fixing/expanding dialogue, is that it's such a clunky interface. You can choose the dialogue for a NPC, but to make changes, you have to show dialogue for ALL NPCs, then find where you need to add a change, then insert into a list, then you get keywords that don't work, etc, etc. Annoying.


I agree about diposition not changing when you complete quests. After all, one of the first quests, the dead taxman. That old guy sings your praises, but doesn't like you any more. Bit of an ol'fart really...


Really this "mod" needs to be broken into seperate mods, otherwise it'll become a beast. One for dialogue, one for missing NPCs (and a little bit of dialogue), one for misc references and one for general fixes.


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Iudas
post Oct 8 2004, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE(PirateLord @ Oct 7 2004, 03:21 PM)
Trouble with fixing/expanding dialogue, is that it's such a clunky interface. You can choose the dialogue for a NPC, but to make changes, you have to show dialogue for ALL NPCs, then find where you need to add a change, then insert into a list, then you get keywords that don't work, etc, etc. Annoying.
I agree about diposition not changing when you complete quests. After all, one of the first quests, the dead taxman. That old guy sings your praises, but doesn't like you any more. Bit of an ol'fart really...
Really this "mod" needs to be broken into seperate mods, otherwise it'll become a beast. One for dialogue, one for missing NPCs (and a little bit of dialogue), one for misc references and one for general fixes.
*



This is not one mod, this is just a listing of things that might be of interest to modders to investigate if they are looking for something that could need modding/fixing.

QUOTE
in addition to the point about the smiths and disposition, i've certainly gone through side quests for seriously ungrateful bastard ingrates -- e.g., i saved your wife from being killed by daedra cultists and you still have a less than 50 disposition to me?
Some of these side quests, the devs left out the normal mod disp in the ending dialog, some of them they gave other disp changes ( I think in one of them your rep with house redoran gets a nice bump ) and in a few others your Island wide REP gets the bump instead.

QUOTE
oh, and people have made toilet/outhouse mods

It would probably be easier for the NOM crew to integrate Johns and porta potties into their mod. There are several "necessities" that the original MW abstracted, most likely to get a certain ESRB rating for the game.

QUOTE
to repair my armor, his opinion of me doesn't change at all.
The repair, enchant and spellmaker interfaces are very limited and not connected with the standard barter variables nor the standard barter results ( disp increase/decrease depending on the outcome of the barter )

QUOTE
Citizens of the towns don't know each other at all! They all give the same tired answer to "someone in particular",


True.
They actually do know each other but like most small-town folk, they are not overly willing to gossip about their friends and neighbours to total strangers. The genericness of the "someone in particular" and "specific places" dialogs is one of the more realistic aspects of MW.
The LGNPCs series of mods ( Less Generic NPCs) is addressing this on a town by town basis, they just released Hla Oad and have most of Ald-Ruhn done, and have released 4 other small towns.
I believe their plan is to do all the towns, then all the cantons of Vivec and then the exteriors/ashlanders and then release a complete and combined for all of MW.

Second consideration: Most conversations everywhere are rather generic and prosaic, people have surprisingly limited areas they talk about with friends and an even smaller set of topics they will share with strangers. Most folks might gossip among their own circle of friends and acquaintences about their other friends and acquaintences, but they are not likely to jabber away with some outlander stranger about what goes on in the 'hood or with the posse or on the job. Overheard conversations would be a different matter, but there are NO NPC to NPC conversations in MW for the PC to "accidentally" overhear/eavesdrop on.
Nalcarya might indeed know all about those silly mage apprentices and might indeed share a laugh about them with her friends in the fighter's guild over a flin at the 8 Plates; but she is not very likely to share her opinions of those girls with some nobody from nowhere just sticking his nose into local gossip. Now if the City of Vivec had a rugby team ( The Vivec Triple Gods ) then sports would be something everyone would gas about.
Go to any small town and the folks will point you toward the police station or the post office or the general store or the mayor's office or the local watering hole or a good restaurant but that is about the extent of what they will willingly share with a stranger.
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post Oct 8 2004, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 7 2004, 07:42 PM)
Now if the City of Vivec had a rugby team ( The Vivec Triple Gods ) then sports would be something everyone would gas about.

24.gif

Now THAT is a most excellent suggestion.

Why aren't there any sports in MW??????


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DragoonWraith
post Oct 8 2004, 11:31 AM
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Quite possibly because everybody's either too busy with sustenance (be it farming or other random tasks), or with getting power/money. Or killing/worshipping things... I don't see too many people in Morrowind who strike me as someone who would be interested in sports...


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post Oct 8 2004, 03:13 PM
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Something else exasperating--ask a member of the Thieves' Guild his background. He says, "I do a little of this, a little of that." "Oh, you're a thief then." No one else in the game says he does "a little of this, a little of that". Furthermore, after delivering this line, if further questioned, the thief will talk about the Thieves' Guild freely, to anyone who asks. Isn't this supposed to be a criminal organization? No matter how lax the assorted authorities are, wouldn't it be at least prudent to have some quasi-legitimate occupation? Something one could talk about with nosy total strangers?

Or perhaps some of the other people in Morrowind should respond, "None of your business, s'wit", when asked about their backgrounds. Even if they are entirely aboveboard, they might not like having someone coming around and interrogating them.
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post Oct 8 2004, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE(mfelizandy @ Oct 8 2004, 01:33 AM)
Something else exasperating--ask a member of the Thieves' Guild his background.  He says, "I do a little of this, a little of that."  "Oh, you're a thief then."  No one else in the game says he does "a little of this, a little of that".  Furthermore, after delivering this line, if further questioned, the thief will talk about the Thieves' Guild freely, to anyone who asks.  Isn't this supposed to be a criminal organization?  No matter how lax the assorted authorities are, wouldn't it be at least prudent to have some quasi-legitimate occupation?  Something one could talk about with nosy total strangers?

Or perhaps some of the other people in Morrowind should respond, "None of your business, s'wit", when asked about their backgrounds.  Even if they are entirely aboveboard, they might not like having someone coming around and interrogating them.
*



The thieves guild member standard response is now added to the list of incongruities. Thank you.

Some of the Comatose Tong will respond with a basic "none of your business" almost all the time, and as people's disp towards the PC falls more folks will fail to respond to questions. But it takes a really low Disp to trigger most of the info refusals.
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post Oct 8 2004, 10:47 PM
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Assassins similarly have a standard resonse "My name is _____, and what I do is my own business" or something like that, that always mean they're assassins...


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post Oct 8 2004, 10:48 PM
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I think what would be worth finding out is if anyone has started tackling any of these issues before duplicated work gets done smile.gif

Once I've finished my Trade/Economy fix, I'll take a look at some of these items.
I think the various "travel" markers that are missing are top of the list.


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post Oct 8 2004, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE(PirateLord @ Oct 8 2004, 09:08 AM)
I think what would be worth finding out is if anyone has started tackling any of these issues before duplicated work gets done smile.gif

Once I've finished my Trade/Economy fix, I'll take a look at some of these items.
I think the various "travel" markers that are missing are top of the list.
*



If you decide to do the missing divine and ALMSIVI markers, you might consider whether there should either be a jailmarker and evidence chest somehwere in the Vivec halls of justice or a jail marker and evidence chest just outside the Ministry of Truth too. It doesn't make sense that the ordinator's would send all their prisoners to the nearest imperial fort jail.
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post Oct 9 2004, 03:23 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 8 2004, 09:46 AM)
If you decide to do the missing divine and ALMSIVI markers, you might consider whether there should either be a jailmarker and evidence chest somehwere in the Vivec halls of justice or a jail marker and evidence chest  just outside the Ministry of Truth too.  It doesn't make sense that the ordinator's would send all their prisoners to the nearest imperial fort jail.
*


Yes and yes, to both locations.

And I agree, the Temple likes handling its own. Awfully convenient that they have a floating rock in which to build the most isolated and hard-to-reach prison in MW. I guess no one in the Ministry of Truth has heard of visiting hours for prisoners, what?


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post Oct 9 2004, 07:46 AM
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Another thing: It has always seemed to me that the Telvanni were the more powerful of the Mages in the game, yet they lack possibly the single most often used thing in the game: Guild Guides. Is there any ingame reason why the Telvanni don't have them (other than making being in House Telvanni annoying as all hell because you have to trek for hours to reach any of them)? I mean, I could see Tel Fyr not having any fast transportation to it for balance reasons (same as Ghostgate), as it has a large number of very powerful artifacts in it, but I mean... it's annoying to swim all the way there, and it really doesn't prevent anyone from taking those items...


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post Oct 9 2004, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 8 2004, 06:06 PM)
Another thing: It has always seemed to me that the Telvanni were the more powerful of the Mages in the game, yet they lack possibly the single most often used thing in the game: Guild Guides. Is there any ingame reason why the Telvanni don't have them (other than making being in House Telvanni annoying as all hell because you have to trek for hours to reach any of them)? I mean, I could see Tel Fyr not having any fast transportation to it for balance reasons (same as Ghostgate), as it has a large number of very powerful artifacts in it, but I mean... it's annoying to swim all the way there, and it really doesn't prevent anyone from taking those items...
*



They all have ship transport ( even Tel Fyr has a boatperson, Beth just forgot to activate her ingame and forgot to give her any destinations and made her the medium armour master trainer ).
Other than that I suspect it is indeed just for the aggro factor.
Also I think ( can't prove this ) that the guild guides are a Mage's guild monopoly and there is that little political issue between the Telvanni and the Mage's Guild. ( actually I am surprised given the political issues that Telvanni allowed a mage's outpost in Sadrith Mora at all.)
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post Oct 9 2004, 11:16 AM
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As for Wolverine Hall, the game mentions that the Telvanni tried to block it, but couldn't. Someone also points out that the only Mages' Guild in Telvanni Territory is the one IN an Imperial Legion Fort.


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post Oct 9 2004, 04:04 PM
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Still another realism issue--all those farmers in the Ascadian Isles don't even comment when I uproot and walk off with entire fields of saltrice or whatever else they're raising. If those crops truly represent their livelihoods, shouldn't they come after me for even touching their precious plants? Shouldn't I at least get fined by the local authorities? Not that I object to free ingredients, but in terms of immersion, this odd gap in the game is a real killer.

Furthermore--Marshmerrow shouldn't be growing in fields, as well as ankle-deep in water. I've found it growing wild along the coast, nearly always in water or wet sand. If it's that water-loving a plant, it stands to reason that it would struggle in drier soil, like that of the farm fields.
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PirateLord
post Oct 9 2004, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE(mfelizandy @ Oct 9 2004, 07:24 AM)
Still another realism issue--all those farmers in the Ascadian Isles don't even comment when I uproot and walk off with entire fields of saltrice or whatever else they're raising.  If those crops truly represent their livelihoods, shouldn't they come after me for even touching their precious plants?  Shouldn't I at least get fined by the local authorities?  Not that I object to free ingredients, but in terms of immersion, this odd gap in the game is a real killer. 
*



That's just a tedious task of assigning ownership to all the plant containers. Not fun!


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post Oct 9 2004, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE(PirateLord @ Oct 9 2004, 06:59 AM)
That's just a tedious task of assigning ownership to all the plant containers. Not fun!
*


AH there is a trick to doing that.
In the object list part of the cells window, find ONE item that you want to assign to a specific NPC, double click it, STILL in the objects list, CONTROL+CLICK on the rest of the items you want assigned to that NPC. When you have them all selected, in the VIEW window, double click on any of the highlighted objects. That opens the Properties window for that item, select the Extra Data check box, use the drop down in that section to assign an owner/faction, click the APPLY TO SELECTION button. A small window pops up telling you that the changes have been applied to X selections where X is the number of items you had selected in the Objects list section. Close that little alert window and then Finally click the RED X at the top right of the object properties window. You have just assigned all the corkbulb at arvel manor to Ravonne Arvel.
QUOTE
Marshmerrow shouldn't be growing in fields, as well as ankle-deep in water
Nor should saltrice. I think this might have been an aesthetic decision on the part of the devs or they just forgot to hire an agronomist to double check their agricultural designs. Added the lack of ownership of the farm produce at the estates to the list of ambiguities and omissions.

QUOTE
As for Wolverine Hall, the game mentions that the Telvanni tried to block it, but couldn't. Someone also points out that the only Mages' Guild in Telvanni Territory is the one IN an Imperial Legion Fort.
I either missed entirely or forgot about that comment ingame, thank you that clears up an ambiguity.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 10 2004, 05:06 AM
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alexandrian_librarian
post Oct 10 2004, 03:58 PM
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there are plants that will grow both ankle-deep in water and on dry land. rice has been grown for millennia using slash-and-burn techniques in upland parts of asia. you get more yield, and more harvests, by growing it in flooded paddies, but then you also have to spend all your time working on the damn rice (this is all pre 20th century tech, of course), which slash-and-burners did not have to do, and in fact mocked paddy-farmers for being slaves to the rice.

rice still can be, and is, found growing wild (i mean actual rice, not the unrelated edible american grass known as 'wild rice'). some species of plants (as well as animals, fungi, insects) require a very specialized environment and ecological niche, while others can survive, even thrive, in a wide range of climates and ecospheres. also, don't forget that farmers will do things like provide moisture (irrigation, anyone?) and otherwise make their plants/stock comfortable, healthy, and pest-free, since it's in their interest to do so.

what i find agriculturally annoying is the fields of kummu -- there ain't no damn fields, the only muckspunge in the neighborhood is this tiny patch on this tiny islet, but vivec helped a farmer whose guar had died harvest his crop of muck. given that whole story, the fields of kummu should look more like gnisis; even that farmer mentioned by the pilgrim who wants you to guide her to kummu doesn't grow any muckspunge. i've also always thought -- despite my unwavering use of herbalism mods -- that since the special 'muckshovel' tool exists that it should be required or something to gather muck.

and if you do early telvanni quests for the mouths, at least one of them suggests using guild guides -- something that has you going to gnisis, it's suggested you use the guide to get to ald'ruhn and take a silt strider from there. the telv are pragmatic. and i think they're usually more worried about other great houses encroaching on their turf than they are about the mages guild.

This post has been edited by alexandrian_librarian: Oct 10 2004, 04:05 PM


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post Oct 10 2004, 06:43 PM
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OK, I'll make a start here smile.gif I'll tackle the more structural issues, since at the moment I'm not an expert with getting dialogue to work.

I'm going to take a look at:
* Missing Markers
* "Field" ownerships
* Fields of Kummu (good one that!)
* Shalk Herds. I believe that get's mentioned somewhere.


I believe someone mentions an underwater city (which I've never found). This might be a purpose wild goose chase. Thoughts?


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post Oct 10 2004, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE(PirateLord @ Oct 10 2004, 05:03 AM)
OK, I'll make a start here smile.gif I'll tackle the more structural issues, since at the moment I'm not an expert with getting dialogue to work.

I'm going to take a look at:
* Missing Markers
* "Field" ownerships
* Fields of Kummu (good one that!)
* Shalk Herds. I believe that get's mentioned somewhere.
I believe someone mentions an underwater city (which I've never found). This might be a purpose wild goose chase. Thoughts?
*



The underwater city rumour is from one of the women in Arielle's very early in the game...it is a pointer toward the sunken shrine of Boethiah.

Added the Muck Shovel and the "missing" fields of Kummu to the list.
6 sizes of MuckSponge in the game so 1 very simple script applied to these 6 containers would make having a muck shovel mandatory for harvesting muck.

On the "plantation and farms field ownership", some of those fields extend over more than one cell. Also, several of these owned crops will need to be modified to handle the four early Imperial Cult quests to gather ingredients. ( easiest way is with a global variable that gets set to 1 when the quest is live and reset to 0 when the quest is completed and then that global is used as the check in the Extra Data section on the crop's ownership.) I don't believe that the Ashlanders own any crops ( nomads usually don't own fields ), cannot find any logical owners for the free growing stuff in the grazelands and around the Telvanni towns. Found the proper owners for the Gnisis mucksponge patches.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 11 2004, 04:30 AM
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post Oct 10 2004, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE(alexandrian_librarian @ Oct 10 2004, 02:18 AM)
there are plants that will grow both ankle-deep in water and on dry land. rice has been grown for millennia using slash-and-burn techniques in upland parts of asia. you get more yield, and more harvests, by growing it in flooded paddies, but then you also have to spend all your time working on the damn rice (this is all pre 20th century tech, of course), which slash-and-burners did not have to do, and in fact mocked paddy-farmers for being slaves to the rice.

rice still can be, and is, found growing wild (i mean actual rice, not the unrelated edible american grass known as 'wild rice'). some species of plants (as well as animals, fungi, insects) require a very specialized environment and ecological niche, while others can survive, even thrive, in a wide range of climates and ecospheres. also, don't forget that farmers will do things like provide moisture (irrigation, anyone?) and otherwise make their plants/stock comfortable, healthy, and pest-free, since it's in their interest to do so.

what i find agriculturally annoying is the fields of kummu -- there ain't no damn fields, the only muckspunge in the neighborhood is this tiny patch on this tiny islet, but vivec helped a farmer whose guar had died harvest his crop of muck. given that whole story, the fields of kummu should look more like gnisis; even that farmer mentioned by the pilgrim who wants you to guide her to kummu doesn't grow any muckspunge. i've also always thought -- despite my unwavering use of herbalism mods -- that since the special 'muckshovel' tool exists that it should be required or something to gather muck.

and if you do early telvanni quests for the mouths, at least one of them suggests using guild guides -- something that has you going to gnisis, it's suggested you use the guide to get to ald'ruhn and take a silt strider from there. the telv are pragmatic. and i think they're usually more worried about other great houses encroaching on their turf than they are about the mages guild.
*



My exposure to rice farming was only of the paddy variety, completely unaware that rice would grow easily in any other environment. Your comment on irrigation however brings to mind another thing that was common ... the "night soil" trade which might work nicely as an answer to why there are no toilets in MW. And could be modded. MW does make a stab at the ecological niche idea with having some critters/plants in only a few of the regions of MW ( shalks, mudcrabs, wickwheat ) and others that are universal ( cliff racers and scrib and rats ).

Easy enough to script the mucksponge containers to require a muck shovel to open them and easy enough to combine that change with any herbalism mod too.
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post Oct 10 2004, 10:57 PM
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Heh, I don't think I have gone out and gathered ingredients outside of a quest in like... ever...


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post Oct 11 2004, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 10 2004, 09:17 AM)
Heh, I don't think I have gone out and gathered ingredients outside of a quest in like... ever...
*



Any mod that assigns ownership to flora is going to have a negative impact on folks who like to play alchemists, and is going to have to be thoroughly inspected to make certain it doesn't bust ingame quests. I suspect assigning ownership to containers will not harm any of the herbalism mods but only testing will guarantee that. Very few flora are of the crop variety: Muck, Saltrice, Marshmerrow, Wickwheat, ash yams cormberry and corkbulb are the only crops that come to mind. The 'shrooms and bloat and flowers and such are all free growing items. Hackle-lo, kresh fibre, roobush, chokeweed, trama root and scathecraw could be useful if anyone wanted to create an industrialization mod as these would make sense as industrial fibres/product feedstocks. Scuttle, sload soap, moon sugar and resin are imported products. Most of the rest are wild flowers/wild lichens/mushrooms not commercialized not crops; or animal/mineral/atronach/vampire residues. Animals and creatures cannot be owned.

This post has been edited by Iudas: Oct 15 2004, 07:16 AM
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 11 2004, 04:59 AM
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Uhm, I think Resin is native to Morrowind. In fact, do any reading on Hist trees, Argonians, and Morrowind, and you'll find that when the Dunmer first came there, they found that the Hist trees (and to a lesser extent, normal trees) produced resins which could be used in the production of very light, very good armor (Chitin, which is made from the shells of insects fused together with resin), and therefore took the resin from the Hist trees (which were "glistening" with it), killing them and pissing off the Argonians.

This post has been edited by DragoonWraith: Oct 11 2004, 04:59 AM


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post Oct 11 2004, 05:21 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 10 2004, 08:14 PM)
Any mod that assigns ownership to flora is going to have a negative impact on folks who like to play alchemists, and is going to have to be thoroughly inspected to make certain it doesn't bust ingame quests.  I suspect assigning ownership to containers will not harm any of the herbalism mods but only testing will guarantee that.  Very few flora are of the crop variety:  Muck, Saltrice, Marshmerrow, Wickwheat, ash yams are the only crops that come to mind.  The 'shrooms and bloat and flowers and such are all free growing items.  Hackle-lo, kresh fibre, roobush, chokeweed, trama root and scathecraw could be useful if anyone wanted to create an industrialization mod as these would make sense as industrial fibres/product feedstocks.  Scuttle, sload soap, moon sugar and resin are imported products.  Most of the rest are wild flowers/wild lichens/mushrooms not commercialized not crops; or animal/mineral/atronach/vampire residues.  Animals and creatures cannot be owned.
*


Only flora that should be owned would be changed. Hence only the fields of the farmers. Take the total land area of farms, compared to the land area of Vvardenfell. I can't see this small % of owned farmland would actually cause any serious issues.


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Iudas
post Oct 11 2004, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 10 2004, 03:19 PM)
Uhm, I think Resin is native to Morrowind. In fact, do any reading on Hist trees, Argonians, and Morrowind, and you'll find that when the Dunmer first came there, they found that the Hist trees (and to a lesser extent, normal trees) produced resins which could be used in the production of very light, very good armor (Chitin, which is made from the shells of insects fused together with resin), and therefore took the resin from the Hist trees (which were "glistening" with it), killing them and pissing off the Argonians.
*



There are two resins ingreds ingame. Resin may have been on the island but nothing on the island gives it anymore.
Shalk Resin and Resin different effects for each. I think it is Shalk Resin that is used to make Telvanni Bug Musk.
The hist trees are no more on Vvardenfell. No flora or containers contain resin althoug some merchants have it as an inventory item and some smugglers crates have it.
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 11 2004, 06:40 AM
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Hm. That's odd. The various books in the game definitely mentioned that all the trees had the Resin, just not so much of it (about what a single portion of Resin is in the game per tree), while the Hist trees was covered in it...


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post Oct 11 2004, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 10 2004, 05:00 PM)
Hm. That's odd. The various books in the game definitely mentioned that all the trees had the Resin, just not so much of it (about what a single portion of Resin is in the game per tree), while the Hist trees was covered in it...
*


Yup another inconsistency. No tree products in unmodded MW at all. 70 tree statics not one tree container. Could explain why there is no maple syrup on Vvardenfell.
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 11 2004, 01:38 PM
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Yeah, I think it wouldn't be hard to switch the tree statics into Containers. Just grab each of the models, make them Containers instead of Statics, and do a Global Search & Replace. That shouldn't be hard. Would cause issues with Morrowind Complete's addon thingy. Also could cause FPS issues (I wouldn't really know... Morrowind Complete's addon does, I don't know why his would and this wouldn't, unless it has to do with the scripts he has on them..)


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post Oct 11 2004, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 10 2004, 11:58 PM)
Yeah, I think it wouldn't be hard to switch the tree statics into Containers. Just grab each of the models, make them Containers instead of Statics, and do a Global Search & Replace. That shouldn't be hard. Would cause issues with Morrowind Complete's addon thingy. Also could cause FPS issues (I wouldn't really know... Morrowind Complete's addon does, I don't know why his would and this wouldn't, unless it has to do with the scripts he has on them..)
*



Another two added to the list: Inconsistencies re resin, and lack of tree products and trees as containers.
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Abaraxas
post Oct 11 2004, 11:37 PM
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How about that missing stilt strider animation that was added in through a mod but it ships with the game just not enabled


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Iudas
post Oct 11 2004, 11:46 PM
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QUOTE(Abaraxas @ Oct 11 2004, 09:57 AM)
How about that missing stilt strider animation that was added in through a mod but it ships with the game just not enabled
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I have that mod and the SiltStriders come to Vvardenfell mod that adds animated silt striders as creatures to various spawn points. Indeed an omission but one that has been already solved rather elegantly several times.
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Iudas
post Oct 11 2004, 11:50 PM
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One of the things on the list is the uselessness of witches and warlocks, they are very few in number on MW and have no roles to play except for one set sequence in BM. I have also never found any mods that specifically address anything with witches, summonings, covens, ceremonies. Similarly with the Mabrigash other than two minor quests they are very insignificant, and again I found no mods that address these ladies or make use of their "special" interests and supposed ability.
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post Oct 11 2004, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Sep 28 2004, 01:42 PM)
Apologies for not being more clear, I am just looking for the gaps, anomalies and lacunae in the game between what is in topics and what actually exists in the game. 
*



There is a Pool of Forgetfulness in a Cave in the game that has no reference to it and is not involved in any quests.

But it is to unique to have been placed there for no reason at all




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Iudas
post Oct 12 2004, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE(Karniest @ Oct 11 2004, 10:11 AM)
There is a Pool of Forgetfulness in a Cave in the game that has no reference to it and is not involved in any quests.

But it is to unique to have been placed there for no reason at all
*



TY it is now on the list. Two mods that I know of have made use of that pool, Illuminated Order and NOM. I suspect that the pool like Crazy Batou and the Axe of the Queen of Bats and Anora's Staff and two dozen named but never used NPCs were created for quests that didn't make the final cut but didn't get removed from the game before it shipped
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shiva7663
post Oct 12 2004, 03:45 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 11 2004, 09:24 AM)
TY it is now on the list.  Two mods that I know of have made use of that pool, Illuminated Order and NOM.  I suspect that the pool like Crazy Batou and the Axe of the Queen of Bats and Anora's Staff and two dozen named but never used NPCs were created for quests that didn't make the final cut but didn't get removed from the game before it shipped
*
One of the better Sixth House plugins makes good use of the Axe of the Queen of Bats.

Here's another anomaly: four Thieves Guild members are working on the Dren Plantation. Their faction should really be Camonna Tong instead. That's one that I fixed with my Dren Plantation Tweaks plugin (hosted on Gamers Roam).
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 12 2004, 04:56 AM
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Be careful about what you do with the Pool of Forgetfulness, as you've said, it's used in two of the most popular mods that have been made.


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post Oct 12 2004, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE(shiva7663 @ Oct 11 2004, 02:05 PM)
One of the better Sixth House plugins makes good use of the Axe of the Queen of Bats.

Here's another anomaly: four Thieves Guild members are working on the Dren Plantation. Their faction should really be Camonna Tong instead. That's one that I fixed with my Dren Plantation Tweaks plugin (hosted on Gamers Roam).
*



TY and I use your mod.
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mfelizandy
post Oct 12 2004, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE(chaoskishin @ Sep 29 2004, 10:27 PM)
The woman you're talking about is the orc mage that Caius sends you to talk near the beginning of the game.  In one one of the chest nearby there is a book about necromancy.  If you find it and show it to her she will teach you a spell that lets you summon an ancestor spirit.
*




You mean there isn't a quest line involving Sharn's pursuit of the necromantic arts? I'm disappointed--I always thought I would find the trigger for her quest sooner or later. Given Sharn's comments on the matter early on in the main quest, and some hints dropped here and there, I was sure there was a nice involved story to uncover about her. Perhaps she'll be threatened by the local Dunmer for her unholy practices. Maybe she'll need escort to the docks at Caldera. Add this one to the list--there's a quest starter just waiting for a modder.

Speaking of the list--it'd be nice if someone with a Web page would post the compiled list of "gaps" someplace modders could find it, for inspiration.
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mfelizandy
post Oct 12 2004, 06:16 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Sep 30 2004, 09:47 PM)
There appear to be only the four people ( Nolus Atrius, Malur Omayn, Bilsa Andaram and Naryn ) named in rumours as existing on the island who are missing from the game.


OK, if those are the only four NPCs missing from the game, where the dickens is "Baram"? Some of the Vivec NPCs relate a rumor that someone named Baram woke up in the Temple the other day, unable to remember how and when he got there. Have I just not looked hard enough (or in the right place), or is he another phantom NPC?

This post has been edited by mfelizandy: Oct 12 2004, 06:17 AM
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Iudas
post Oct 12 2004, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE(mfelizandy @ Oct 11 2004, 04:27 PM)
You mean there isn't a quest line involving Sharn's pursuit of the necromantic arts?  I'm disappointed--I always thought I would find the trigger for her quest sooner or later.  Given Sharn's comments on the matter early on in the main quest, and some hints dropped here and there, I was sure there was a nice involved story to uncover about her.  Perhaps she'll be threatened by the local Dunmer for her unholy practices.  Maybe she'll need escort to the docks at Caldera.  Add this one to the list--there's a quest starter just waiting for a modder.

Speaking of the list--it'd be nice if someone with a Web page would post the compiled list of "gaps" someplace modders could find it, for inspiration.
*



The list of gaps has gaps. But the lack of any necromantic quests involving Sharn has been added to the list. She is not the only NPC who could be a jump off point for an interesting miscellaneous quest.

Adding another possible omission to the list is the lack of any family related quests, or of any reprecussions on the PC for offing a member of a large family. I mean hell there are 13 members of the Andrano family on the island you would think that doing a good turn for one of them might have some familial reprecussions or offing one of them might have some negative consequences down the timeline.
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post Oct 12 2004, 06:42 AM
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Okay, I am a little behind with this thread, so if this has been mentioned I apologize profusely (although I did do a little search through the thread and didn't find it mentioned).

In Dagon Fel, there is a woman in one of the shacks who has completely blocked up one of the two doors into it. You click on the door, and get a message that it appears to be blocked. IIRC, if you go in through the other entrance and talk to her, despite the fact that she's got crates piled up against the door and her place is a wreck, she has nothing interesting to say. I assume there could be something related to this that I haven't yet discovered, but it definitely bugs me that you can't get anything out of questioning her. (I can get the name on the NPC, if this needs to be followed up on).

I agree about all the people at Ghostgate who have nothing interesting to say after you've talked to Vivec. That's just not right, even if they know you're going in alone. At least, they should *know*, and have an opinion. Even if they spat on your shoes and called you a fake and said they hope Dagoth Ur carves your heart out with a spoon, that would be *something*.
(Hmm, maybe different responses based upon house affiliation?)

Okay, now back to work, and I promise later to come back and read the whole thread blush.gif



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Iudas
post Oct 12 2004, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE(Gren @ Oct 11 2004, 05:02 PM)
Okay, I am a little behind with this thread, so if this has been mentioned I apologize profusely (although I did do a little search through the thread and didn't find it mentioned).

In Dagon Fel, there is a woman in one of the shacks who has completely blocked up one of the two doors into it. You click on the door, and get a message that it appears to be blocked. IIRC, if you go in through the other entrance and talk to her, despite the fact that she's got crates piled up against the door and her place is a wreck, she has nothing interesting to say. I assume there could be something related to this that I haven't yet discovered, but it definitely bugs me that you can't get anything out of questioning her. (I can get the name on the NPC, if this needs to be followed up on).

I agree about all the people at Ghostgate who have nothing interesting to say after you've talked to Vivec. That's just not right, even if they know you're going in alone. At least, they should *know*, and have an opinion. Even if they spat on your shoes and called you a fake and said they hope Dagoth Ur carves your heart out with a spoon, that would be *something*.
(Hmm, maybe different responses based upon house affiliation?)

Okay, now back to work, and I promise later to come back and read the whole thread blush.gif
*




The dear lady in Dagon Fel is yet another DEAD END. There is nothing that relates to her anywhere else. Why she blockaded her door is but another in the many unanswered questions of Vvardenfell. She just joined the list.

The lack of change at GhostGate is already on the list. I think there is a consensus that it is a serious omission. I know of two mods that address the GhostGate but neither addresses the need to change all the dialogs there after that turning point in the MQ.
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post Oct 12 2004, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE(mfelizandy @ Oct 11 2004, 04:36 PM)
OK, if those are the only four NPCs missing from the game, where the dickens is "Baram"?  Some of the Vivec NPCs relate a rumor that someone named Baram woke up in the Temple the other day, unable to remember how and when he got there.  Have I just not looked hard enough (or in the right place), or is he another phantom NPC?
*


Didn't want this one to be missed, as I agreee with mfelizandy, he's missing and ought to be found/created.


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post Oct 12 2004, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 11 2004, 08:26 PM)
Didn't want this one to be missed, as I agreee with mfelizandy, he's missing and ought to be found/created.
*



Baram the missing temple sleeper is now on the list.
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alexandrian_librarian
post Oct 13 2004, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE
Adding another possible omission to the list is the lack of any family related quests, or of any reprecussions on the PC for offing a member of a large family. I mean hell there are 13 members of the Andrano family on the island you would think that doing a good turn for one of them might have some familial reprecussions or offing one of them might have some negative consequences down the timeline.


I would love to see the tombs integrated with or related to this -- Andrano is a good example, with the Andrano tomb and Skull of Llevule Andrano in the main quest, but (many? several?) other tombs share their names w/the names of people still living on the island; some of those living people are prominent citizens. And I also think that somewhere -- apologies i can't remember where -- some NPC makes a comment, or you read in a book, where somebody points out the disrepancy between being told that most of Vvardenfell was only recently settled, and all these old dunmer family tombs that people keep finding, and of course most (all?) of the tombs which have temple shrines have shrines of veloth, not Tribunal Shrines, which i take to mean that these shrines pre-date the Tribunal, which means the tombs themselves also pre-date the Tribunal.

(wandering slightly OT: And related to *that*, I've always wondered why you never run into anyone who's legitimately using a tomb (not vampires, crooks, necromancers) -- why you never stumble into a bunch of mourning Drens with their Camonna Tong associates and a Tribunal priest or two interring a family member, or replacing old candles, or putting out offerings. Or how about a whole posse of Ordinators interring a prominent deceased colleague? And they'd know you were there to rob the place and they would be pissed. There was an old thread on the old forums about making tombs more exciting)


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Iudas
post Oct 13 2004, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE
where somebody points out the disrepancy between being told that most of Vvardenfell was only recently settled,

Vvardenfell has been settled for thousands of years, it was only recently opened to "legal" immigration/settlement from the rest of the Empire.
Long history of Dwemer and Chimer/Dunmer living there. Nords invading. Slaves imported. Imperials invading.

QUOTE
I've always wondered why you never run into anyone who's legitimately using a tomb


Added this to the list of things omitted.
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post Oct 13 2004, 09:56 AM
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ive been following this post, and there is some really good stuff here, but i know that there is some things in this list that will seriously screw up existing mods. (AM and any herbalism.) Those will need to be throughly checked before putting this out. There is a gold edition coming out of AM, you could ask himn to get compatability for this in there.


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post Oct 13 2004, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE(stargate525 @ Oct 12 2004, 07:16 PM)
ive been following this post, and there is some really good stuff here, but i know that there is some things in this list that will seriously screw up existing mods. (AM and any herbalism.) Those will need to be throughly checked before putting this out. There is a gold edition coming out of AM, you could ask himn to get compatability for this in there.
*
"AM"? I'm sorry, what plugin is that? I wish people would just spell out what they mean instead of just assuming that they are understood. I know what MTT is, but not AM.

As far as herbalism goes, the only mod of that type that I use on a regular basis is Srikandi's Homeopathic Alchemy mod, and that one does some very strange things to merchant inventories.
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post Oct 13 2004, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE(stargate525 @ Oct 12 2004, 08:16 PM)
ive been following this post, and there is some really good stuff here, but i know that there is some things in this list that will seriously screw up existing mods. (AM and any herbalism.) Those will need to be throughly checked before putting this out. There is a gold edition coming out of AM, you could ask himn to get compatability for this in there.
*




There is not A mod here. There is the potential for a few hundred different mods here. This is just a thread looking for things in the UNMODDED game that are .... incomplete, ambiguous, omitted, flawed, or contradictory. When this thread hits its EOL point and I have to start a new thread, the first post will be "The Current List" that I have of things that came from this thread and fit the above defined criteria. If some modders are motivated to look at the list and say "Hey this would be L33t and K3w! to mod.", fine and dandy. If not; NBD the list will exist whether anyone is motivated by it or not. As for worrying about other mods, all mods are optional... read the readmes and make your choices....choose wrong and you waste a few minutes uninstalling a mod... this is what we call a BFD when we are exuding sarcasm.
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post Oct 13 2004, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 12 2004, 07:34 PM)
There is not A mod here.  There is the potential for a few hundred different mods here.  This is just a thread looking for things in the UNMODDED game that are .... incomplete, ambiguous, omitted, flawed, or contradictory.  When this thread hits its EOL point and I have to start a new thread, the first post will be "The Current List" that I have of things that came from this thread and fit the above defined criteria.  If some modders are motivated to look at the list and say "Hey this would be L33t and K3w! to mod.",  fine and dandy. If not; NBD the list will exist whether anyone is motivated by it or not.  As for worrying about other mods, all mods are optional... read the readmes and make your choices....choose wrong and you waste a few minutes uninstalling a mod... this is what we call a BFD when we are exuding sarcasm.
*



sorry, forgot about that. But there is something i have just thought of. There is a lack of printing presses for the number of books in the game. I remember hearing something about them, but i believe it was just for the secret basement in mournhold....


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post Oct 13 2004, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE(shiva7663 @ Oct 12 2004, 08:32 PM)
"AM"? I'm sorry, what plugin is that? I wish people would just spell out what they mean instead of just assuming that they are understood. I know what MTT is, but not AM.

As far as herbalism goes, the only mod of that type that I use on a regular basis is Srikandi's Homeopathic Alchemy mod, and that one does some very strange things to merchant inventories.
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I too am at a loss for AM. I know CM is now going to get an upgrade ( Complete Morrowind ). Sri appears to have departed the modding arena... but I still think her Homeopathic alchemy is a must have mod. I think his concern is that applying ownership to the farm/plantation crops might cause an issue with some of the herbalism shortcut mods....
When I was a ute, on Halloween, we used to go traipsing around the local fams tipping over outhouses and appropriating corn on the cob ....one Halloween, we tipped over an outhouse that was occupied... the occupant was not amused.... and he was armed. Rock Salt has a memorable sting and a 12 gauge has a sound that is impossible to forget when it is aimed at your spotted owl and there is NO PLACE TO DUCK. Which is a long way around the barn for saying that if someone makes a mod out of any of the ideas in this thread and it does not accord with someone else's mod ... BFD. You live in a world of choices, judgement and discrimination... so choose what you want, exercise judgement and discriminate between alternatives.
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Time is now: 27th February 2005 - 03:49 PM