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> Gaps in Gameplay, Missing NPCs, Questless Objects,, and other Mod Opportunities
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 11:21 AM
Post #1


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Joined: 30-October 02




This is the continuation of the Latest Rumours little secrets thread.
The impetus for this project was that I ran across an incongruity ingame in a mod I am making.
It has grown a wee bit since.
The current list of

THINGS THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY CORRECT
Gaps in Gameplay, Missing NPCs, Questless Objects, and other Mod Opportunities:

Starting with Latest Rumours, Many names are mentioned in latest rumours. Most of those names refer to NPCs who exist in MW+Trib+BM. Several of the referenced names DO NOT Exist.

Nolus Atrius the corrupt Balmora Magistrate
Malur Omayn the imprisoned dissident priest and author
Bilsa Andaram a twice mentioned source of rumours in Gnisis
Narese Athrys rumour monger in Suran
Madayna Sarendas rumour monger Dagon Fel
Baram who woke up in the Temple in Vivec with no knowledge of how he got there.
Alma Rule in Mournhold
Naryn a guard at Fort Moonmoth who likes to wander around in his nightshirt
Old Avus a rumour monger in Balmora.
The ship Renda's Dower which is supposed to be docked sometimes at St. Olm's canalside.
My Tale completely empty dialog topic.

Uriel Septim has a Heir and two minor sons. Geldall and Erman and Ebel
OR
Uriel Septim has two declared heirs Erman and Ebel
There are no house Dres on Vvardenfell .... except for Treras Dres a Telvanni Necromancer and leader of one of the rogue settlements.[ This thread is all his fault ] And Drulene Falen from Tear Redoran Guar breeder/trader.

"A little of this a little of that" Oh surprise you are a thief!! "What I do is my own affair." Oh surprise you're an assassin.

Inwaen a telvanni sharpshooter who had dialog but no presence.
Unwaen a telvanni sharprhooter who has no dialog and is one of the 0 placed characters
The paranoid lady behind the blockaded door in Dagon Fel.
The missing House Hlaalu guar herders.
The dead Hlaalu Noble behind the locked door in the Balmora Morag Tong Hideout.
The many dead adventurers, warriors, thieves, wizards with Vampire faces
The 6 rumours that inform about the rogue Telvanni settlements lead to nothing further.
The Ash Poets. Part of Dagoth Ur's army but...

The MaarGan rumours directing the NPC to help the Bouyant Armigers and the Temple hunt Blight beasts around Maar Gan and GhostGate. No follow up.
Nelos Onmar's love affair, the lady does not respond if you return her stolen jewels.
No topics added to rumours or anywhere else after the PC does indeed clean out smugglers nests or bandit hideouts or creature infestations, no rep improvements, no dispostion improvements.

The complete lack of dialog change at GhostGate and with the Bouyant Armigers after Vivec and the PC decide to go to war inside the GhostFence. No Bouyant Armigers ever patrol the gate or the fence or inside the fence, no harrassing raids, no military deployments.

The milling hordes of Daedric worshippers who have no dialog or any reason for being at those shrines.



Then there are the 31 different people the player is directed to see if the player wishes to know more about A CLASS or a skill. Few of these NPC's have any NPC/specific information to impart to the PC.

An-Deesei should expound on the Monk's life
Bolrin should expound on the Merchant's Trade
Milie Hastien should expound on Clothes and clothiers trade
Scouts talk about geography
Fenas Madach should talk about Thieves trade
Ingokning should expound on the assassins trade
Ian should be the Archer's source
Athel Nerano The rogues life
Llevana Salaren should explain acrobacy
Dumbruk gro-Bolak should expound on Knights and knightly virtues
Albecius Colollius knows BattleMagery inside and out
Mervs Uvayn senior agent
Flaenia Amiulusus on DrillMastery
Angoril is the Senior Master At Arms in knowledge
Snorri on Crusaders
Miles Gloriosus is the Model Warrior
Garothmuk gro-Muzgrub is the smith's smith
Maela Kaushad should explain the Wise Woman's trade
Vala Catraso should explain priestly duties
Gudling the Rascal the hunter's trade
Briring on Barbarianism
Nalion on traders
Tendris Vedran on the apothecary's trade
Galar Rothan should expound on enchanting
Anarenen explains alchemy
Strilian Macro should talk about being a Spellsword
Melvure Rindu should talk about being a witchhunter
Eraamion is the Nightblade expert
Artisia Arelas is the pilgrim with the most miles on her feet ( she truly has access to more dialog topics than any other NPC ) not bad for a level 2 NPC.
Ygfa on healing
Estirdalin is the most talkative Mage
Smokey Morth is supposed to expound on sorcery

No one expounds on the Bard's trade

Meanwhile Witches and warlocks are supposed to explain summonings and Bad Daedra. they don't.
Mabrigash are supposed to do something with the ghost snake. they don't.

There are approx 50, 0 count NPC's never placed ingame ( including the famed Medium armour Master trainer/TelFyr shipmistress.) Some are spelling errors or duplications.

Several of the unique/lore weapons and armours do not have the corresponding enchantments/powers.

Approx 1/3rd of the ingame characters have an alarm rating of 0...

Now for the incongruities, inconsistencies, incompletenesses and illogicalities:

The King is in Mournhold, Mournhold is the political and religious capitol of Morrowind Province. So where are the politicians, the various Great House Reps?
Farmer's do not own their crops.
No Muck fields at the Fields of Kummu
Muck Shovels not needed to harvest muck.
Lore says the trees on MW give resin...no they don't
Lore says the Shalk give Shalk resin for telvanni bug musk .... yes they do.
Lore says Shalk are a domesticated animal on MW ... where are the shalk herds?

Trading in Dwemer Artifacts is never a crime, but it is supposed to be.
Some pre made classes will refuse to deal with you if you are holding; but they are holding themselves in their barterable inventory not the result of a levelled list placement.
The Daedric Crescent is the ONLY forbidden weapon in all of Tamriel. Except if the PC has it no one cares.
Skooma Pipes are not illegal ( Thommy Chong eat your heart out )
Skooma and Moon Sugar possession is not a crime but it is supposed to be.
Intimidation/tauting ( verbal harassment ) is never a crime. ( if it is no instances have been reported )
Given all the money there is on Vvardenfell Bribery is ridiculuously overpowered and the effects never wear off.
Likewise with taunting. and admiration. Intimidation is supposed to wear off and lower dispostion in the long run.
Info Refusals do not occur often nor cause any effect
Service refusals are inconsistent/hypocritical.

No Tresspassing signs do not exist, tresspassing is supposedly a crime too.
Many of the powerful/unique artifacts in the game are not protected or protected only by weak opponents.

Actually the whole crime issue and the way it is abstracted from jail time to what exactly is a crime.

There is a whole issue of cross membership in the two religions and being able to rise to the top rank in both. Likewise cross membership in House Telvanni and the Mage's guild and being able to rise to top rank in both. And no voluntary renunciation is possible. Only expulsion or excomminication for negative acts.
And the generic issue of being able to be topdog in all the guilds, both religions and one great house simultaneously.

Many of the misc quests result in no improvement in dispostion of the quest giver or any island wide improvement in rep ( many do however ).

Tombs are never used by the families. No entombments, no flowers, no one praying, no Holidays.
http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/calendar.shtml

The distribution of scrolls at low levels, thousands of Ondusi's unhingings and Effyghi's Gem Feeders.
Likewise the distribution of buyable spells at low levels or of appropriate spells for the various specializations.
The issue of NPC given rewards where the rewards are brain dead and usually too weak or inappropriate for the player's level or class.

The complete unimportance of diseases to gameplay.

Snowy G on the bridge. The one billy goat gruff?

The lack of a tie-together of all the Personal Easter Eggs ( fishy sticks, named ashes, pop je's bone etc.)

The original pack guars not being companion share enabled ( Rollie, Corky, Atheden Girith's Guar) after Trib.
Indeed the whole issue of backporting the Tribunal and Bloodmoon game additions and improvements to originalMW assets.
The MW East Empire Company members do not belong to the East Empire Company faction.

No exquisite gloves
only two small chest types.

There are 36 large families on MW. ( large = 5 named members or more ) Except for the Dren and Dagoth families, helping or harming anyone in a family has 0 effect on the rest of the families attitudes toward the PC. 0 effect on anything at all.

The whole issue of the strangeness that is the Balmora Mage's guild. Ajeera giving the PC quests after the PC outranks her. The necromantic orc.

Missing: TempleMarkers in Sadrith Mora, Vos, Suran, Maar Gan, Holomayan, and Ghostgate Temples
Missing: Imperial cult marker: Vivec foreign quarter canal works Altar
Missing: Jail Marker/evidence chest Vivec Hall of justice or Ministry of Truth.

The whole Ald'ruhn versus Ald-ruhn inconsistency in books, quests, dialogs and even two scripts. Cells are consistently named Ald-ruhn.

Inconsistencies exist in faction memberships.

Pool of Forgetfullness, Axe of the Queen of Bats, Anora's Staff, and the whole issue of what is medium armour, what counts as Imperial Legion Armour, what counts as a silver weapon.

Some of the things on this list have had been modded, some are being modded, many have never been touched by the mod community. There is some small and inevitable overlap with this list and the work being done by ThePal with his Unofficial patch. There is no pretence made that this is in any way a complete list of the inconsistencies, omissions, unintentional ambiguities, that make Morrowind and its Expansions and its official mods such a superb game to play and such a superb canvas upon which to repaint a world.










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The Wingless
post Oct 16 2004, 12:13 PM
Post #2


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Joined: 10-October 04




While it certainly won't address ALL of that very sizeable list, the Less Generic NPC project is helping to, at the very least, make the world a little more cohesive as far as family-ties and relevant rumors/secrets/advice.

But golly gosh-darn jimminy-doodley... that's alot of loose-ends.
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 16 2004, 12:18 PM
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Joined: 13-June 03




Yeah, I'm actually really happy, seeing that list. Seeing all those things tied into the game would be awesome.
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 12:33 PM
Post #4


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Joined: 30-October 02




QUOTE(The Wingless @ Oct 16 2004, 01:13 PM)
While it certainly won't address ALL of that very sizeable list, the Less Generic NPC project is helping to, at the very least, make the world a little more cohesive as far as family-ties and relevant rumors/secrets/advice.

But golly gosh-darn jimminy-doodley... that's alot of loose-ends.
*



The LGNPC series is a damnfine series. The problem with the families of Morrowind is that they are often spread across several cities and the wilderness. Another problem ( within the construction set itself ) is that NPC's are sorted by first letter of first name or only name so the families structure is never visible. I will have an excel spreadsheet available with family sorting available.

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DragoonWraith
post Oct 16 2004, 12:42 PM
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Joined: 13-June 03




THAT would be extremely useful.
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 12:56 PM
Post #6


Disciple
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Joined: 30-October 02




Well it would just not be a list if something wasn't left out now would it?

Shurdan Replay mines quest in the Redoran stronghold quest, 2 miners never arrive after they are hired.

Read Dialog Greeting 1 for ID = Dialog Placeholder for some interesting stuff and the Dialog for the Ash Poets ( ashghoul 16)
"Thou wilt come to me there, my love, our senses tingling, through the inky ocean delight, our voices mingling." And they say romance is dead.

The Twin Lamps dialog is never used: "They light the way to freedom" ( the whole twin lamps thing has been addressed 3 times I believe ). Some slaves are unfreeable.

The "accident" that befell Talen Vandas, King Llethan's nephew and heir apparent is mentioned only in passing.

Guard Bribery does not stop the guard from arresting the PC... or looking the other way while the PC does a bit of thieving ( Fable influence there. )

No locksmiths but plenty of lockpicks and trap probes.
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Monica21
post Oct 16 2004, 01:28 PM
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Joined: 16-January 03
From: D'Hara




QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 16 2004, 11:21 AM)
Nelos Onmar's love affair, the lady does not respond if you return her stolen jewels.

I don't understand this. Maurrie doesn't want her jewels, so it's not surprising that she doesn't respond if you bring them to her. She wants to you to find Nelos Onmar for her because she likes the dashing bad boy type I guess. The thing about this quest that I consider a loose end is that once it's completed, she's still standing by the side of the road and he's still in the Halfway Tavern. Perhaps they should both disappear or she should move to the tavern.

QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 16 2004, 12:56 PM)
Shurdan Replay mines quest in the Redoran stronghold quest, 2 miners never arrive after they are hired.
*


The Shurdan-Raplay mine is for the Hlaalu stronghold.

edit: I'd like to add one more, and that's Drinar Varyon and his redware pots. He's involved in two quests, one for House Hlaalu and another for the Imperial Legion. If you complete the quest for Hlaalu first, the Legion doesn't recognize that he's already gone and still wants to arrest him.

This post has been edited by Monica21: Oct 16 2004, 01:39 PM
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 02:37 PM
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Joined: 30-October 02




QUOTE(Monica21 @ Oct 16 2004, 02:28 PM)
I don't understand this.  Maurrie doesn't want her jewels, so it's not surprising that she doesn't respond if you bring them to her.  She wants to you to find Nelos Onmar for her because she likes the dashing bad boy type I guess.  The thing about this quest that I consider a loose end is that once it's completed, she's still standing by the side of the road and he's still in the Halfway Tavern.  Perhaps they should both disappear or she should move to the tavern.
The Shurdan-Raplay mine is for the Hlaalu stronghold.

edit:  I'd like to add one more, and that's Drinar Varyon and his redware pots.  He's involved in two quests, one for House Hlaalu and another for the Imperial Legion.  If you complete the quest for Hlaalu first, the Legion doesn't recognize that he's already gone and still wants to arrest him.
*



There is a way to retrieve her jewels from that badboy and try to return them to her without killing him. There should be a dialog in there to cover that eventuality.
I thought they both disappeared ( got disabled ) when you did the return trip part of the quest, if not then that is an easily corrected flaw in the scripting.

Hlaalu stonghold my bad. The miners should show up. Actually this sounds like the same situation as Maurrie and Nelos two NPC's that after a certain condition is met should be disabled and re-enabled somewhere else.

Drinar Varyon's multiple situation is one of the issues I am having with my 50 houses mod. And to add to the mix there is a quest to take out Vorar Helas for the IL and there is the Twin Lamps/Rabinna quest he is involved in. And his is one of the houses in 50 houses too.
They are added to the list for the next update
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avo
post Oct 16 2004, 02:45 PM
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If you are a female character and choose to kiss Nelos Onmar, he says to look him up at the tavern in Peligad. Two journal entries, but nothing quest-wise or any other interaction. (If I'm not mistaken...)
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Monica21
post Oct 16 2004, 02:48 PM
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Joined: 16-January 03
From: D'Hara




I didn't know that you could retrieve the jewels, so sorry about that. I had always just taken her glove. Thanks for explaining. :)

QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 16 2004, 02:37 PM)
Actually this sounds like the same situation as Maurrie and Nelos  two NPC's that after a certain condition is met should be disabled and re-enabled somewhere else.
*


Yes, it's done with Nels Llendo after you leave the cell where he's orginally found, so it should be easy enough to do with either of those NPCs.

Speaking of Nels Llendo, he has dialogue that makes reference to him perhaps having some quests for you, but he always says something like "Not now, maybe later." I've never been able to get any quests from him, so I don't know if this is another loose end or me just not meeting certain conditions.
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 02:50 PM
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Joined: 30-October 02




QUOTE(avo @ Oct 16 2004, 03:45 PM)
If you are a female character and choose to kiss Nelos Onmar, he says to look him up at the tavern in Peligad. Two journal entries, but nothing quest-wise or any other interaction. (If I'm not mistaken...)
*




Different NPC.....Nels Llendro wants the kisses from the PC ( female ) or money from the PC ( male ) he does show up at the tavern but there is no other quest to him he sells picks and probes.

Nelos Onmar is already at the Tavern, has Maurrie's jewels in his inventory. If the PC stumbles upon the characters in a certain order, both the rogues will be in the tavern simultaneously for a while.
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE(Monica21 @ Oct 16 2004, 03:48 PM)
I didn't know that you could retrieve the jewels, so sorry about that.  I had always just taken her glove.  Thanks for explaining.  :)
Yes, it's done with Nels Llendo after you leave the cell where he's orginally found, so it should be easy enough to do with either of those NPCs.

Speaking of Nels Llendo, he has dialogue that makes reference to him perhaps having some quests for you, but he always says something like "Not now, maybe later."  I've never been able to get any quests from him, so I don't know if this is another loose end or me just not meeting certain conditions.
*


Looking at nelos onmar's inventory he has two pieces of exquisite jewelry I am assuming it is hers only because it fits the story line and is congruent with the situation in the Aeta Wave Breaker quest.

loose end. he has no other quest dialog. once he appears at the tavern he is just a Thieves service merchant with picks and probes to sell.
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 16 2004, 02:59 PM
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Aeta Wave Breaker? I know I've never come across that name in Morrowind... sounds like Metroid or something.
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RavingRiddler
post Oct 16 2004, 03:04 PM
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Joined: 14-August 04
From: In your head




QUOTE(Iudas @ Oct 16 2004, 12:21 PM)
Nelos Onmar's love affair, the lady does not respond if you return her stolen jewels.
*


Thats because she doesn't want them back. She clearly says that. She wants the player to carry a message to the bandit.
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE(DragoonWraith @ Oct 16 2004, 03:59 PM)
Aeta Wave Breaker? I know I've never come across that name in Morrowind... sounds like Metroid or something.
*



Misc quest outside of Caldera. Lady had her jewelry stolen ... little cave crawl for the PC, possibility of screwing over both the thief and Aeta in the deal. Nords have funky names.
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RavingRiddler
post Oct 16 2004, 03:06 PM
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Joined: 14-August 04
From: In your head




QUOTE(Monica21 @ Oct 16 2004, 02:28 PM)
If you complete the quest for Hlaalu first, the Legion doesn't recognize that he's already gone and still wants to arrest him.
*


All you have to do is bring back the Dwemer tube hidden in his house
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 03:11 PM
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Joined: 30-October 02




QUOTE(RavingRiddler @ Oct 16 2004, 04:04 PM)
Thats because she doesn't want them back. She clearly says that. She wants the player to carry a message to the bandit.
*



She does not say she doesn't want them back she says they are less important to her than the dashing badboy. The two are not exactly the same thing. The point is only that the dialog tree here is incomplete for the potential options the PC has. The dialog is not incongruous or ambiguous in itself ( it may not be wholly believable depending on how your character plays the game), just not all the i's are dotted and t's crossed in the dialog tree.
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DragoonWraith
post Oct 16 2004, 03:13 PM
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Yeah, she should at least be like "Oh, thanks... I guess..." and then continue to be all dreamy about her robber...
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Iudas
post Oct 16 2004, 03:26 PM
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Joined: 30-October 02




QUOTE(RavingRiddler @ Oct 16 2004, 04:06 PM)
All you have to do is bring back the Dwemer tube hidden in his house
*



There is a dialog option if the PC has the dwemer tube in his possession before he is given the quest by Imsin the dreamer. He would have the tube if he completed the relevant Hlaalu quest first and found the tube and kept it in his inventory. There is no specific option that would allow Imsin to know that the Hlaalu quest had been completed and that varyon was on the run or already arrested and out of the picture.

It's not an error, it's an incompleteness.
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alexandrian_librarian
post Oct 16 2004, 04:01 PM
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Joined: 1-July 04




yay Iudas! Good job putting all this together. Another thing I remembered: at least two NPCs in the Balmora Mages Guild are talked about as the wrong sex in other NPC dialog. Don't remember where, but I believe that for Estirdalin when she's talked about as being the-person-to-see-if-you-want-to-learn-about-mages she's called a he; I don't remember who refers to Marvayn? Marayn? Dren (the male dunmer downstairs in Balmora MG who mostly knows destruction and alteraiton spells, that Galbedir has to go talk to during the fake soul gem mission) as female. I *think* i've come across this w/other NPCs, too.

EDIT: i think that if someone really wanted to put in the effort, the list could possibly be divided into things definitely wrong and things arguably wrong. that is, i don't know if i agree that there's a problem w/ondusi's and ephyggi's scrolls, and others might feel it's not a problem that nobody uses the tombs (maybe the natives are spooked out by 'em?), so those could be very arguable while some other things are less arguable. the list is already valuable as is, and maybe attempting such a divide would be a waste or itself cause argument.

This post has been edited by alexandrian_librarian: Oct 16 2004, 04:05 PM
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