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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Doubling: A little known source ????
      #1608789 - 07/15/03 11:08 AM

Hello everyone.

Thanks to the work of many talented modders such as Pumaman,
GhostWheel, ShadowSong, and others I've forgotten, many of the
sources of doubling have been identified, and at least partial solutions
proposed. However, below I describe an experiment that reveals a
source of doubling that I at least was unaware of. The purpose of this
post is two fold:

a) To ask whether this source is in fact well-known, in which case a
pointer to some threads would be much appreciated

b) If its not well known, to ask someone else to repeat the
experiment so we can rule out my system being odd, or me just
being an idiot. :-)


The Experiment.

1) Create two tiny plugins, 'JM1' and 'JM2' (JM = Junk Mod). JM1 adds
a single chitin spear to the center of Seyda Neen and does nothing
else, JM2 adds a single daedric longsword to the center of Seyda
Neen and does nothing else.

2) IN EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS, HAVE THE FILE-DATE OF JM1 AND
JM2 SET TO BE SOMEWHERE IN THE YEAR 2001. THUS, ANY SAVE
GAMES WE CREATE WILL AUTOMATICALLY BE MORE RECENT THAN
THE PLUGINS.

3) Start MW, select JM1 as a used plugin. The only other plugin I used
was Quick Char Gen, just to save time. Start a new game. Exit the
Census office, see the spear lying on the ground, pick it up. Save
the game. Exit MW.

4) Test One.

Set the file-date on JM2 to be more recent than JM1 (though still in
2001). Start MW. Enable both the JM1 and JM2 plugins. Load the
save game from (3).

On my system everthing looks fine. I have my character holding a
spear, and the longsword lying on the ground.

5) Test Two.

Set the file-date on JM2 to be older than JM1. Start MW. Select both
JM1 and JM2 as enabled. Load the save game from (3).

On my system I have no longsword, but what appears to be
doubling: I have both a spear on the ground AND in my characters
hand.

If the above is repeatable on other people's systems, I think there are
some significant implications for the way we handle mods and fight
doubling.

I'll be very interested in any feedback,
Coda.


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Melted_Snake
Curate

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 418
Loc: "Geographic Location"? WTF? What the hell does that mean?
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1608901 - 07/15/03 11:56 AM

Here is an example.

Lets say we make a house that is cut in half by a wall.The only way to get to the othere side is through a door.Go into the house and open the door but do not close it.Save your game and open up the mod and resave it.Open up your save and look at the door way.You will see a door that is open and a door that is closed.That is because the is reference of that door in the mod which is closed and a reference of a door in the saved game that is open.That is the cause of doubling.

Of couse I could be wrong.

--------------------
It Shall Rock
Hey ya know how I said I'd beat you a mechassault?Well heh I uh sorta...*My mech blows up in the distance*Oh dear god not AGAIN!*Runs off*.
~~~~~~~~~~~
"Here's to being blurry-eyed from staring at a Trolls bootie in Max for 6 hours!"~~Lady E~~

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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Melted_Snake]
      #1609036 - 07/15/03 12:55 PM

Thanks for your reply Melted_Snake.

When you resave the mod in TESCS you set its file file-date to be
*more recent* than that of the save-game. This is known source of
doubling, well documented by the luminaries I mention above. :-)

A common suggestion to avoid doubling is to ensure that the file-date
on your save game is more recent than all your plugins. The point of
my post was to show that doubling can occur even if you follow that
advice.......

Cheers,
Coda.

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TheNamedOne
Initiate

Reged: 08/12/02
Posts: 94
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1609082 - 07/15/03 01:19 PM

Coda-

I haven't tried your experiment yet. If I get a chance tonight, I will. Even if I don't, you're results do make sense based on my unscientific observations of my games. Plugging in and pulling out more recent plugins has always caused doubling in my older plugins, regardless of the timestamp on my save file. So, yeah, I think you are on to something.

Unfortunately, I'm the last guy who is going to think of a solution.

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reiella
Adept

Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 294
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1609162 - 07/15/03 02:49 PM

The reason doubling occured in your instant, despite a plugin being added to a save with a newer date is that you added a plugin to the equation.

Both plugins modify Cell Seyda Neen for their item references.

JM2 is loaded before JM1 (Due to having an older file stamp). Hence Seyda Neen is pegged as changed from the earlier plugin.

The updating the save file date is a suggestion for when the doubling is occuring due to an updated ESP that is already in the save file's dependancy list.

To prevent doubling when adding a new plugin to a cell that's already been modified by a 'newer' plugin, you should step the timestamp up on the ESP so that it loads last of your plugins.

Believe the situation occurs due to potential chain dependancy effects in plugins.

--------------------
In Death Focus; may you find Focus.

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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: reiella]
      #1611783 - 07/16/03 10:26 AM

Reiella:

To follow up on your comments, I tried a second experiment,
similar to the one outlined above, only with ESP 'JM2' replaced by 'JM3'.
'JM3' was a new plugin that does nothing apart from add a daedric
longsword to the central plaza in *Balmora*. The thing is, I *still* get
doubling of the chitin spears in Seyda Neen if JM3 is added and has
older date than JM1. It would appear it doesn't matter whether the
plugs affect the same cell or not.

I think I understand your suggestion about setting the timestamp on
the new plugin - it corresponds to my test result (4) in my original
post. The reason I'm reluctant to do this is that there are two reasons
to play with timestamps: to try to avoid doubling AND to resolve
conflicts between plugs. For example, MW-Advanced and Marksman
both modify cliff-racers. If you prefer the MWA version you can simply
set the timestamp on the MWA esp to be more recent than the
Marksman one. If you then want to introduce an updated form of
Marksman (say the author has patched a bug, or you've made a minor
tweak or two), you don't want to set the timestamp to be the most
recent ESP or those damn Marksman fireball-shooting cliff-racers will
appear! :-) [I'm just using MWA and Marksman as examples.]

Cheers,
Coda


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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1615625 - 07/17/03 10:46 AM

One more data point, and one that seems to me rather odd.

At *some* point I remember *someone* writing that they had cleared
up at least some of their doubling problems by simply *loading a saved
game twice*. At the time I couldn't see how this could work, and hence
ignored the comment. But last night I got desperate and tried it out
and it DOES seem to work.

To be specific: I repeated the original experiment (only with JM2
replaced by JM3), up to (5) in my original post. Had the usual doubling
(spear in hand *and* on ground). Then reloaded the save game and
the doubling dissappeared (spear in hand only).

I was so floored by the above I did a similar experiment in my 'real'
game: fifty or so plugins, Magical Trinkets of Tamriel dated fairly new,
adding a older-dated plugin forces the "Abandoned Abode" hut outside
Seyda Neen to reset itself, doubling the skeleton on the bed if you've
already animated it. Sure enough, just loading the save game again
removed the doubling.

a) Anyone understand why this works?

b) Anyone use this regularly as an anti-doubling strategy?
Any limitations?

Cheers,
Coda


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Avenger
Disciple

Reged: 06/13/02
Posts: 1528
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1617017 - 07/17/03 08:24 PM

Now that is a very interesting find....

--------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
Get my female clothing and armor plugins at www.unforgottenrealms.net

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TMTY_Lizard
Acolyte

Reged: 05/30/03
Posts: 158
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Avenger]
      #1617037 - 07/17/03 08:44 PM

This is odd. Do you mean simply hitting ESC then loading the game again, or saving immediately, exiting, then reloading? Either way, this is interesting. I'm going to go experiment.

--------------------
Lizard's Mod Finder Thread

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Gen_Lee
Disciple

Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 1106
Loc: Portugal
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: TMTY_Lizard]
      #1617346 - 07/17/03 11:26 PM

Waiting for any news about the double save.

--------------------
http://morrowind.host.sk/




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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: TMTY_Lizard]
      #1619394 - 07/18/03 10:33 AM

Quote:

This is odd. Do you mean simply hitting ESC then loading the game again, or saving immediately, exiting, then reloading? Either way, this is interesting. I'm going to go experiment.




Just hitting ESC and reloading, no exiting.

I agree its odd, which is why:

a) I didn't believe it when I first read it, and
b) I'd like someone else to try it to prove that I'm not going nuts. :-)

Cheers,
Coda

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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1632896 - 07/22/03 10:36 AM

Update:

Although I've found nothing that directly contradicts my findings above,
those findings are not as generally applicable as I'd hoped.

Last night I continued my "real" game, which includes MTT (Magical
Trinkets of Tamriel). Headed north to Caldera, and did one of the early
fighters-guild quests in which you have to slay four Telvanni agents
in the vicinity of the Caldera Mines. Completed the quest successfully,
and saved in the caverns containing three of the four agents
(something like 'Ashannu'). Exited the game. Restarted, and introduced
a 'new' (ie, additional) clothing plugin. Loaded my Ashannu save game
twice in succession (see above for reasons), and coc'ed back to
Seyda Neen and the MTT Abandoned Abode. Unfortunately, doubling
had returned - the Abandoned Abode was reset, with tutorial
messageboxes reappearing and a skeleton that I had already
animated lieing on the bed.

The only difference I can see between this case and those I described
previously is *where* I saved - in the early cases I was always saving
in the Seyda Neen exterior. Since interior cells exist in limbo, tonight
I'll repeat the experiment, only saving and double loading from a
Caldera exterior cell. For now its time for sleep. :-)

Cheers,
Coda


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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1632914 - 07/22/03 10:41 AM

Question: is this thread valuable to anyone else?

I started it in the hope that others would join in with the experiments
so we could progress more quickly. That hasn't happened. That's OK,
something that's important to me may be of no interest to anyone
else, but I wonder if I should continue the current 'drip feed' of
information as I find it, or just wait till the end and make one summary
post.

Cheers,
Coda

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RaDiAtIoN
Initiate

Reged: 05/09/02
Posts: 81
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1634082 - 07/22/03 04:38 PM

I am just a casual morrowind gamer so I would not be lying if I said I have near to none knowledge about modding or editing in morrowind. In contradiction to that however, your thread is highly interesting and very helpful to other modders I think. Just post your findings as you have before and people would start to help. I for one would really like to see this doubling bug solved and I am sure others would too.

--------------------
"To know the light, you must see the dark."

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Coda
Novice

Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 28
Re: Doubling: A little known source ???? [Re: Coda]
      #1636766 - 07/23/03 02:01 PM

RaDiAtIoN:
Thanks for your kind words.

Update:

OK, after lots of experimenting I eventually found a way to remove
the Abandoned Abode doubling when starting from my Caldera save.
Its rediculously complex, but the sequence of steps was:

- Start up MW with the 'old-dated' plugin added.
- Load the Caldera save.
- COC to Seyda Neen, and enter the Abandoned Abode. Doubling was
clearly present at this point.
- Don't exit the game itself, but now *reload* the Caldera save.
- I could now COC to Seyda Neen, and the doubling in the AA was
gone.

In short, 'visiting' a cell that is doubling, then doing a reload fixes this
one particular case of doubling. If you load twice in succession without
the 'visit' the doubling remains.

Unfortunately, this result suggests that the 'load-twice trick' is not
going to get us very far in general. If you introduce a plugin that is
dated older than twenty of your current plugins, then having to visit
all the cells that those twenty plugins 'touch' is not really a viable
option.

Most people won't encounter this form of doubling anyway, as I
imagine most people introduce additional plugins only as the most
recent dated one, after loading and saving in the CS. I'm encountering
my problems because I'm artifically setting dates to ensure that some
plugins over-ride others, and hence control conflicts.

I think I might move on to looking at doubling arising after a particular
plugin is edited.

Cheers,
Coda

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