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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
[WIP] A Simple Leveling Mod
      #2815983 - 07/16/04 04:53 PM

First off, to those who even bothered to read a [REQ] thread, I thank you. To anyone who is willing to make the minor modifications below, I love you (in a good way).


Hereís what the mod should do:

1) Lower the max stat multiplier at level up (which is default at x5) to x1.

2) Add 1 to each stat when 3 levels in the corresponding skill(s) are gained.

3) Subtract 1 to each stat if any of those levels are lost in the corresponding skill(s). (To prevent jail or other skill loss from raising stats further.)

Thatís it.


Now, Balor already made a very similar mod (linked here: http://www.thelys.org/mods.php?a=Balor#Levelling), but with the following differences:

1) Players would forget skills overtime. (A fine idea, but since levels donít lower with lost skills, itís a huge problem for leveled lists, etc.)

2) The stat multiplier is capped at x2, not x1.

Basically, Balorís mod already has all of the necessary code (I ran through it in notepad of all things). I just need a clean, modified version. However, I know that this is truly a 5 to 15 minute job that will take me the entire weekend, with much swearing interspersed since I have yet to use the TESCS. Also, Iím not near as familiar with how the global scripts will affect the rest of the land or conflict with other plug-ins.

Thus, anyone up for a mini-challenge?

And thanks again...

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

Edited by Lady Eternity (07/29/04 10:06 PM)

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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2816143 - 07/16/04 05:49 PM

Just a quick question to those who are looking at this thread but aren't willing to/have not the ability to mod (which is fine).

Am I making this mod modification simpler then it is? Would it cause hours of frustration for even a jaded modder because of the global changes in the scripts? Or is it actual as simple as I believe it is?

Thanks. I really just need some kind of virtual measurement for this, because I have no experience to go on.

--------------------
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Mode_Locrian
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2816231 - 07/16/04 06:12 PM

I always find modifying someone else's code to be a lot harder than you might think... you have to guess at what their variables mean until you can track them down in the code and figure out what they do.

This might be a slightly annoying job to take on, though, as you say, it might not be that hard -- just aggravating.

--------------------
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Bards of Vvardenfell Thread (New Info 8/15/04)


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Miral007
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Reged: 10/28/03
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Mode_Locrian]
      #2816503 - 07/16/04 07:14 PM

hmm, this should work.

The mod you linked to, without forgetting skills, with max stat multiplier set to 1.

http://miral.pctech3.net/Levelling.esp

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Miral007]
      #2817522 - 07/17/04 12:51 AM

Quote:

hmm, this should work.

The mod you linked to, without forgetting skills, with max stat multiplier set to 1.

http://miral.pctech3.net/Levelling.esp




I just tested the mod and it works perfectly! (Though, I didn't get to do a full test of what happens 90 days later because I hadn't done any modifications on the attack frequency of the dark brotherhood, but I'll get to that later this weekend.) Nonetheless...

I probably shouldnít bore you with the exact details of how much you just helped me, but youíre going to get them anyway. Especially because you Ė quite literally Ė reawakened my love for Morrowind and I couldnít be happier!!!

Hereís why:

Iím naturally a rather compulsive RPG player with a tendency to make the best (though not technically the most powerful) character I can. In Morrowind, I quickly learned as I started to play that the only why for me to take full advantage of the character skills was to learn them in 10 level blocks. That is, 10 levels for each attribute I wanted to raise by 5. Thus, I would force myself not to use skills appropriate to situations or stand there running into a wall for upwards of an hour (thank you auto run). Obviously, this isnít a very good way to play a game and I put Morrowind away.

Several months later, as the new GIANTS mod and others came into existence; I decided it was once more time to try again. This time, however, I decided to approach the game from a completely different perspective. I looked and looked for the mod that you just created from Balorís code, but found nothing suitable and decided that it would be best to just play and not worry about the skills and level bonuses. The problem? I was at level four and had gained no less then 75 skill levels, but not a single level up. (In part due to my skill selections on the characters I attempted in this second time around.) In essence, I was being penalized by the system for playing the game as if it was a world unto itself.

Your changes fixed all that! Now Iím no longer penalized for playing each character as if they were real. And with the addition of some great lighting mods, GIANTS, the recently released Morrowind Comes Alive 2.2, etc., Iíll finally be able to play Morrowind as I always wanted to play it. Again, I know it was such a small request for a mod, but I canít thank you enough.

Would you mind if I made a copy on my server in a new zip with a new read me detailing your changes and giving credit to you and the original author? If so, this will also make itís way into the Ultimate Lists below as a game play option for different styles of players. (Note that the link is seriously going to be turned into a website over the next two weeks and all of the mods Iím currently testing for Bloodmoon and Tribunal will be in it.) Oh, and I'll also fire off an e-mail to Balor if you get back to me on this.

Thank you once more!!! (I know, enough already.) But you get a trophy, too!

Miral007's Trophy:

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Miral007]
      #2817541 - 07/17/04 01:01 AM

*laughing*

And to think. I just visited the homepage on that website and it's the list I had bookmarked to find updated versions for the compatiable mod list I'm creating!

Ok, I'm done praising now. But it doesn't mean any less to me.

Now I'm off to work on getting my frame rate up... On a laptop no less. ^^

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2817543 - 07/17/04 01:01 AM

No problem, it was a pretty simple job. Had to read thru the scripts to understand what he was doing, but in the end it was pretty easy because he had separate scripts for the decrease, which made it easier to disable.

Note: You may want to run it thru TESTool, I forgot to clean the GMSTs.

--------------------
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Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2817553 - 07/17/04 01:03 AM

Quote:

*laughing*

And to think. I just visited the homepage on that website and it's the list I had bookmarked to find updated versions for the compatiable mod list I'm creating!

Ok, I'm done praising now. But it doesn't mean any less to me.

Now I'm off to work on getting my frame rate up... On a laptop no less. ^^




My list kinda sucks as of now... you should bookmark Telesphoros' own thread, it has a LOT more. Mine will probably be removed soon to give way to an actual website...

--------------------
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Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Miral007]
      #2817556 - 07/17/04 01:03 AM

Quote:

Note: You may want to run it thru TESTool, I forgot to clean the GMSTs.




Shall do so. I'm sure I'll be running that on quite a few mods by the end of this weekend.

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2817667 - 07/17/04 01:32 AM

Just make sure it doesn't delete the setting related to 10 skillup stat increases

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Miral007]
      #2817689 - 07/17/04 01:38 AM

Right... Here's what I got as a log from cleaning a copy of the mod:

File: Levelling.esp
==============================
deleted GMST sTeleportDisabled
deleted GMST sLevitateDisabled
deleted GMST sWerewolfRefusal
deleted GMST sWerewolfPopup
deleted GMST sWerewolfRestMessage
deleted GMST sWerewolfAlarmMessage
deleted GMST sMaxSale
deleted GMST sDeleteNote
deleted GMST sEditNote
deleted GMST sProfitValue
deleted GMST sCompanionShare
deleted GMST sCompanionWarningMessage
deleted GMST sCompanionWarningButtonOne
deleted GMST sCompanionWarningButtonTwo
deleted GMST iLevelupTotal
deleted GMST fLevelMod
deleted GMST fWereWolfRunMult
deleted GMST fWereWolfSilverWeaponDamageMult
deleted GMST iWereWolfBounty
deleted GMST fWereWolfStrength
deleted GMST fWereWolfAgility
deleted GMST fWereWolfEndurance
deleted GMST fWereWolfSpeed
deleted GMST fWereWolfHandtoHand
deleted GMST fWereWolfUnarmored
deleted GMST iWereWolfLevelToAttack
deleted GMST iWereWolfFightMod
deleted GMST iWereWolfFleeMod
deleted GMST fWereWolfAthletics
deleted GMST fWereWolfAcrobatics
deleted GMST fWereWolfHealth
deleted GMST fWereWolfFatigue
deleted GMST fWereWolfMagicka
deleted GMST fWereWolfIntellegence
deleted GMST fWereWolfWillPower
deleted GMST fWereWolfPersonality
deleted GMST fWereWolfLuck
deleted GMST fWereWolfBlock
deleted GMST fWereWolfArmorer
deleted GMST fWereWolfMediumArmor
deleted GMST fWereWolfHeavyArmor
deleted GMST fWereWolfBluntWeapon
deleted GMST fWereWolfLongBlade
deleted GMST fWereWolfAxe
deleted GMST fWereWolfSpear
deleted GMST fWereWolfDestruction
deleted GMST fWereWolfAlteration
deleted GMST fWereWolfIllusion
deleted GMST fWereWolfConjuration
deleted GMST fWereWolfMysticism
deleted GMST fWereWolfRestoration
deleted GMST fWereWolfEnchant
deleted GMST fWereWolfAlchemy
deleted GMST fWereWolfSecurity
deleted GMST fWereWolfSneak
deleted GMST fWereWolfLightArmor
deleted GMST fWereWolfShortBlade
deleted GMST fWereWolfMarksman
deleted GMST fWereWolfMerchantile
deleted GMST fWereWolfSpeechcraft
deleted GMST fCombatDistanceWerewolfMod
deleted GMST fFleeDistance
deleted GMST sEffectSummonFabricant
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature01
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature02
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature03
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature04
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature05
deleted GMST sMagicFabricantID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature01ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature02ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature03ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature04ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature05ID
deleted GLOB abelmawiaCounter
==============================
Saved: Clean Levelling.esp

I don't see anything of note that might have been bad other then iLevelupTotal or fLevelMod. But they're probably duplicate entries...

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (FINISHED by Miral007!) [Re: Sederien]
      #2817691 - 07/17/04 01:38 AM

btw this weekend I might try reworking it so that it has forgetting stats with level decreases... But then I might not (I have a really short attention span)

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2817701 - 07/17/04 01:41 AM

Quote:

I don't see anything of note that might have been bad other then iLevelupTotal or fLevelMod. But they're probably duplicate entries...




I didn't touch those, they were edited in the version I downloaded... I didn't see fLevelMod, but iLevelupTotal was set as edited yet it was the default value of 10... so I know thats safe.

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (FINISHED by Miral007!) [Re: Miral007]
      #2817707 - 07/17/04 01:43 AM

Quote:

btw this weekend I might try reworking it so that it has forgetting stats with level decreases... But then I might not (I have a really short attention span)




Go for it if you'd like... But note, I have mixed feelings on how useful this plug-in would be to me. So, you'd probably be doing it for yourself or anyone else who's been part of the 100+ views. (Anyone want to break the vow of silence and show support/indifference?)

Should you attempt it, however, good luck!

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (FINISHED by Miral007!) [Re: Sederien]
      #2817712 - 07/17/04 01:47 AM

Wouldn't be for me, no sir/ma'am (which is it anyways? heh)... I don't use mods that make my character get worse if I'm just exploring, especially since there are so few monsters in the wild (and I don't care for GIANTS)

So unless anyone else wants this, I probably won't make it. (though I might just for personal practice)

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (FINISHED by Miral007!) [Re: Miral007]
      #2817725 - 07/17/04 01:53 AM

Quote:

Wouldn't be for me, no sir/ma'am (which is it anyways? heh)...




Sir. Sorry if that disappoints. ^^ Though, I'm always glad when one takes the time to question vs. assuming male.

Quote:

(and I don't care for GIANTS)




Yeah. I hear that a lot. It's a big love/hate mod where people either love the amount of additional monsters or hate the quality of the models. I suppose I use it mainly because of the variety and there really isn't anything better that I've found.

Wilderness Mod is also fun for variety, but... Wow. That mod brings my laptop to it's knees and then proceeds to slit any vital arteries. I think my last test with it on (almost a year ago) was at 1... maybe 2 fps. *_*

--------------------
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The Madd Leveler website.

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alexandrian_librarian
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Reged: 07/01/04
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what about Luck? [Re: Sederien]
      #2853859 - 07/26/04 05:08 PM

I just d'l'ed it and am about to try it. at first it was a little bit of a challenge tracking my attribute/leveling stuff and then it was even a little fun, making sure i got beat up enough or something to get those 5x endurance. but now it's a pain, especially as i've once again started over from scratch to try and build an unarmored-favoring character.

two things, though, that i can't tell from the thread -- one is, do you still level up at 10 minor/major levels, even if no point-multiplier kicks in? i don't want to be automatically leveld up, w/changes in creatures, loot, etc., before i'm ready, as my stealthy, elf-y characters start off a little fragile.

two is, what about Luck? if your increases come only when 3 governed skills are raised then you have no way whatsoever to change luck, and i don't like that.

okay, two more things -- since i'm not sure i understand yet all that this does, i don't know how to figure out the maximum possible number of attribute-increase-"points" i can accumulate in the game. i don't need it to add up to exactly what's possible under the old system, but if there's a vast discrepancy, i may not want to use the new system.

-- and i understand this isn't being done as a formally released mod so i can live with miral goin' 'hell witch'oo, library boy, i don't feel like writing no stinking readme!', i do appreciate any efforts toward making the leveling/stat-increasing more conducive to just playing the game and not making little charts that i cross off to track how many times i've raised an endurance skill since i last leveled up. at the same time, i'm probably not quite the 'hardcore purist' you guys might be. now and again i even use the console...though most recently it was just to give my altmer pc a haircut!

really, i swear -- loved those braids in the front but that perfectly-horizontal-across-the-back just made it look too much like a wig. anyway, i don't know that i'd want to use a mod that includes loss-of-skills attribute penalties. and, btw, what if i just got hit w/a 10-lvl 'drain/dmg blunt weapon skill' spell attack? would i ALSO lose 3 points of strength? that would be a little overpowering, no?

y'know, there really was a fourth thing and now i've completely forgotten what it was. i'm sure i'll remember the minute i go offline again!

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ewww....how'd the bandersnatch get all frumious?

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alexandrian_librarian
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holy hlaalu, you actually IMPROVED luck! [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2854344 - 07/26/04 07:50 PM

i just can't bring myself to 'issue trophies' because like emoticons it all looks to me like notes passed by 8thgrade girls with hearts and stars and circles dotting their i's and exclamations.

however -- miral, this is, so far (i didn't go to jail or anything to decrease skills, even temporarily), significantly better than i had hoped. i started a new game and ran around in god mode so i could up skills and see what happened. it had no problem (and no stuttering or slowing down or anything) tracking when a governing attribute changed -- i cast cnjr, illusion, and will-based spells. i made sure conjure and illusion each went up twice, then destroyed, altered (and hthanded a few poor crabs to death) until i leveled up. i had three points to assign to three diff. attributes. i put one to personality but not to intelligence, just to see if it confused the mod. then i cast more spells, and it had no problem 'remembering' that intelligence and personality skills had each gone up twice in the previous level.

i say that you actually improved luck and i mean it -- because in the stock system you have only one opportunity to improve luck by more than one point at a time, i always made luck one of my initial 10-point attributes, regardless of whether i thought it was the most appropriate choice for my character. similarly, though not quite as extreme, with endurance for my fragile breton and bosmer characters.

now, because i know i will always have a point to put to luck each level (or each level that i want to) without worrying about spending them so carefully, or feeling like, well, this level i happened to go up 10 personality-ranks so i better put those 5x into personality and forget about luck -- well, now i don't have to think or play like that. i haven't done the arithmetic yet to figure out how many eventual points my character will have to distribute, and now i may not even bother. this kicks ass. i can now play the damn game without ever stopping to try and remember how and when i last used a particular skill. this so kicks ass! small as this esp is, it quite possibly gets my vote for best m'wind mod i've tried yet.

--------------------
ewww....how'd the bandersnatch get all frumious?

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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
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Re: holy hlaalu, you actually IMPROVED luck! [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2854524 - 07/26/04 08:58 PM

Glad you like it. Of course, full credit to Miral for the code changes. I'll be releasing a second copy somewhere on my webspace in due time.

Speaking of which... There may or may not be one tiny problem with the mod which I should note to any new people reading this revived thread. I don't know what happens when your stats hit 100 and you gain more skill levels. That is all. ^^

For those who want a quick recap of what this thing does:

Quote:

If you gain any 3 skill levels tied to the same attribute that attribute goes up (permanently) by one.


If you gain 10 major/minor skill levels, you get the option to level up with 3 coins (same as original), but only 1x (as opposed to up to 5x) for any skill.

Result: You no longer have to plan your skills. Yeeha!




Any comments Miral?

--------------------
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The Madd Leveler website.

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: holy hlaalu, you actually IMPROVED luck! [EDITed] [Re: Sederien]
      #2854700 - 07/26/04 09:52 PM

EDIT -- 2 more things -- i had several skills governed by new attributes (e.g., spear as an agility rather than an endurance) and i'm going to try and locate them in the scripts to make the tweaks i've grown accustomed to, hopefully won't cause any problems.

the second, from looking at the asterisked bal_<etc.> scripts i gather that the loss-of-skills thing is governed by one script entirely. so i guess i'll try entirely deleting that script and hoping it doesn't cause problems when script "A" says 'start script "B" now!' and script "B" no longer exists. damn this game...it's forcing me to learn more *about* these confounded computing machines than i ever wanted to know, but not enough to actually be able to *do* much of anything new with them.

--------------------
ewww....how'd the bandersnatch get all frumious?

Edited by alexandrian_librarian (07/26/04 10:15 PM)

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alexandrian_librarian
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one bug, and still more benefits from this project [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2856560 - 07/27/04 11:38 AM

yet another positive result/selling point on this -- i realized, while cheerfully punching away at scribs near seyda neen, that this thing also improves powerleveling for those who like to do it (this includes me, when i'm in the really early levels), since w/this, every skill increase counts toward an attribute increase, while old-school powerleveling devalues all skill increases past the tenth.

and one error in the .esp -- the relevant bal_etc. script categorizes acrobatics as an agility skill rather than strength. (AddAgi not AddStr, I think, I'm not on my home machine right now so I can't check)

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Miral007
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Re: one bug, and still more benefits from this project [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2856957 - 07/27/04 02:04 PM

Heh again, I didn't write this. I sinmply changed some settings and removed reference to a script. Now, if you want, I might rework it again to use the stats from my skill change mod (I have no idea where this is right now, its... somewhere lol), Like acrobatics->agility and security->luck...

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: one bug, and still more benefits from this project [Re: Miral007]
      #2857019 - 07/27/04 02:33 PM

Yes, I stand corrected -- I should be referring to it as Balor's/Miral007's/Sederien's excellent mod, I guess. Though it's not really a mod yet. Hmm, like herbalism, right? Balor started it, came up w/the idea of doing something new and different, and that's the most important part, but what I really like is Herbalism Redux. That's if I'm remembering right, that balor came up with it.

I'm curious why you made security a luck skill -- for a while I thought about making luck govern some magical stuff, but amount of magicka is set by that f or i intelligence multiplier. i gave up on having it govern magicka, and i thought it would be unbalancing to have it actually be a spell-skill, w/5x multipliers and all -- (though now that i don't have to worry about multipliers any more...). I had wanted to come up w/a character-style that was very good alchemist/enchanter but heavily penalized for actual spell-casting, and since intel governed those skills and magicka, it's always seemed like if you get good at alch and enchant you're basically an idiot not to also use all that magicka you get.

Currently I'm thinking about Personality-governance changes. In my head the only way to justify illusion under Per has been to think of it as "perception and personality," your perception helping your ability to judge social nuances and therefore speech/merc. So I've thought about making either sneak or marksman a Per skill.

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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Sederien]
      #2857150 - 07/27/04 03:20 PM

Quote:


I probably shouldnít bore you with the exact details of how much you just helped me, but youíre going to get them anyway. Especially because you Ė quite literally Ė reawakened my love for Morrowind and I couldnít be happier!!!






well well well....

as i get ready to install direct 9.0b, and a couple of more mods,
I checked once again the Forums! at the very last minute, it seems there is a mod that i cannot live without!!

I gritted my teeth a bit when i read all about the leveling system in Detail. I want to Explore, to Play! I would imagine that i would have had to be compulsive-obsessive, keep ten sheets of paper handy and pay more attentio to the skill sheets than to the game!

no!

oh...I *could* have just played anyways, and not pay attention To Proper Skill Levelings....but i have giants, morrowind enhanced, creatures of morrowind, mca 2.2....my landscape will have Lots and lots of monsters!

now maybe i can "ignore" luck, and place intelligence there, in the attributes.
I will play a Breton fighter/mage. light and heavy armor both i was going to have as heavy armor was about the only endurance-increasing thing out there that i could use! somehow, training SPEAR just to level endurance is about as wise, in real
life, as training in car driving just to be able to board an airplane!

even if a bit "bugged" it might be far far better than what is there!

I am starting a new character, but i wonder.....i wonder if one *MUST* start a new character to use this?!

if works as put forth.....

freestone

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Miral007
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: ]
      #2857257 - 07/27/04 03:43 PM

You shouldn't NEED to start a new character, but your character would still have the level/skills/attributes from before this mod was installed, which would somewhat diminish the effect.

My other mod has Security as Luck because, well, have you ever tried to pick a lock? Sure you need skill, but there is also a lot of luck invloved if you want to get it done quickly. You have to use your knowledge and kind of guess it to the best of your ability, but every lock is different...

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Sederien
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Re: [REQ] A Simple Levelling Mod (Code Included) [Re: Miral007]
      #2857444 - 07/27/04 04:22 PM

Well, now that we've all entered into the 'How to balance Morrowind' realm, let me make an observation.

This pseudo mod will scale to your playing style. It is possible to never level up in the course of the game and to continue to increase your stats. At the same time, you can level up every single chance you get and probably end up right where youíd be if you played through regularly. Thus, it's really quite flexible when used.


Now, I'm not entirely sure how one would repackage this mod with changes, because it would vary greatly by playing style in this case. For example, I would be against assigning luck to any skill as I feel that it affects too many variables to be considered anything other then a measure of experience in the world.

However, this mod is simple enough that several different versions could be made. (Some of which, I'm now considering making myself in due time.)

One variation as mentioned above is to simply switch attributes tied to skills. (Variation 1)

I was thinking about a second variation that would kill the level up altogether and automatically raise your level every 15 to 20 skill points, but then I realized that it was silly. (Based on the fact that the original mod allows you to level up when you gain 10 major/minor and you'd be ridiculously pressed to work on swords as a mage just to level, etc.)

The last would just be a suggestion based on using the skill/cap remover mod with this mod. Now that would make for an interesting experience, but your monsters should probably be adjusted to compensate by other mods.

I'm done. . . For the moment. ^^


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alexandrian_librarian
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Found a bug [Re: Sederien]
      #2857543 - 07/27/04 04:52 PM

*I just noticed, and dbl checked, that I wasn't going up after gaining >3 strength levels from armorer, and >6 levels speech/mercantile. so i'm guessing it's not catching when levels change when you're in menu-mode?

* re: new game, i started all over. close to the same character he was before, but not exactly -- because this makes me feel like i can be more fast and loose -- if later i regret not taking marksman as a skill it feels like less of a big deal because even though i won't go up as quickly, if i practice and practice i'll still get a payoff every three levels.

on the lock/luck issue -- yeah, i gave up trying to pick a lock. i even d/led (and printed out! the good ol' days when i had a corporate job i hated) the "MIT Guide to Lockpicking." And since I do have intelligence, you might be right Miral -- it's probably my luck. Though on balancing issues I do agree w/Sederien about Luck governing skills.

now, unless the menu-problem i cited above is caused by the several three-letter changes I made to the bal_munchkin script [changing "AddAgi" to "AddStr," etc.], then these changes to governing attributes aren't causing problems. --- okay, i just tested w/the backed-up miral's leveling .esp installed, and when i went up 3 armorer levels i still did not get the strength increase.

btw, i noticed when doing so that miral's esp is approx. 79k or so and mine about 5k smaller -- other than the AddAtt changes all i did was have testool clean the 'evil' gmsts -- could that alone really account for 5k? if so, no f*in wonder that dirty mods cause such problems.

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Sederien
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Re: Found a bug [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2857588 - 07/27/04 05:13 PM

Cleaning it also resulted in about a 5 Kb loss on my end as well. I'm going to go through the scripts later tonight to see if there are any easy ways to futher improve the mod and perhaps I'll locate the problem there. On the other hand... Well, I have about no clue where to even start looking for the global script.

*skitters away to download GuriBhanGuri's guide*

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Re: Found a bug [Re: Sederien]
      #2857602 - 07/27/04 05:26 PM

i thought it was just the 7 scripts beginning bal_antimunch, those are the ones asterisked by cs when i load leveling. but this is as far as my comp skills go -- are those actually local scripts?

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Sederien
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Re: Found a bug [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2857624 - 07/27/04 05:36 PM

I believe the entire mod is purely created from global scripts. There should be very little local scripting for a leveling mod. Which of course brings me to why I need to delve through the mod myself. I need to track when each variable is accessed and perhaps simplify the scripting to work at any time (in menus, with books - which already works, and everywhere else). That and check for the proper attribute reduction scripts when jailed, etc.

*whee!*

(Actually, I'm a bit tired today, so I'm just going to go back to learning MySQL database design for the moment. I'll get to work on/look at this by Thursday at the very least.)

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Miral007
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Re: Found a bug [Re: Sederien]
      #2859152 - 07/28/04 03:29 AM

Boy lotta stuff happens when I'm at work with no access to the forums (customer service at u-haul, can only look at u-haul crap... ugh)

Anyways sorry if I don't cover everything

1) I noted before that I had not cleaned it. Most of the mods I make are for my own use with tribunal and bloodmoon on so GMSTs aren't a problem, but here it slipped my mind...

2) While luck does affect almost everything in game, its not by much. 50 luck would be about equal to maybe 10 skill points... I would probably put it as agility instead if luck were unbalancing... (grr wish this game had a dexterity attribute along with agility... you can be dextrous but not agile y'know...)

3) Most of the mod is indeed in the munchkin script and those near it. The only other stuff I found was game settings (o ya might wanna be careful when you clean... if the number of removed GMST's is any higher than 72 you might wanna revert and clean by hand)..

4) I'm not sure about the stoppage after 3 gains... I'm an ammature scripter myself and didn't look much past what I needed to change to fit Sederien's request. I will open it up and take a look tomorrow (tuesday)...

5) You're learning MySQL sederien? Jeez I don't really know any scripting languages... Just the basic universals and try to wing it from there... I do need to learn SQL and some other stuff though so maybe I can get a better job than customer service... What are you using to learn?

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Sederien
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Re: Found a bug [Re: Miral007]
      #2859792 - 07/28/04 07:55 AM

Quote:

I'm not sure about the stoppage after 3 gains... I'm an ammature scripter myself and didn't look much past what I needed to change to fit Sederien's request. I will open it up and take a look tomorrow (tuesday)...




Yea!

Quote:

5) You're learning MySQL sederien? Jeez I don't really know any scripting languages... Just the basic universals and try to wing it from there... I do need to learn SQL and some other stuff though so maybe I can get a better job than customer service... What are you using to learn?




Off-topic, but ok:

The Visual Quickpro Guides. They have one specifically on PHP and MySQL, which I picked up along with their refresher on HTML (which needs to be known well before PHP). The books are by Larry Ullman and Elizabeth Castro, respectively, and only $20-25 each. I also heartily recommend Castro's to anyone starting out with HTML and Ullman's to anyone who really wants to learn PHP/MySQL (It can become a bit tedious/complicated and requires a good deal of patience. However, I really love a programming language - of sorts for you purists out there ^^ - which includes the functions: explode() for PHP and the --i-am-a-dummy switch for MySQL - No, I'm not making that up. There is actually a switch to prevent you from doing stupid things with MySQL.)

I picked up the books after attempting to mod phpBB with limited success. And, since I wanted a dynamic site w/ a news post and forum, I figured what the heck. I'll learn it all. Picked up the books and now that's why I don't yet have time to learn Morrowind's scripting on top of that!

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: Found a bug [Re: Miral007]
      #2860577 - 07/28/04 01:46 PM

M: yeah, i wasn't complaining about the GMSTs, i saw your warning and did so. It's just that i'm not that technical a person so i was surprised that the file went from 79k to 75k just from gmsts getting cleaned (and, yes, it was only 72 that TEStool cleaned). If they're really that big then I understand why people call them evil!

*on the bug, what I meant is that it wasn't going up at all when I was using armorer and when I was using mercantile/speech. so i was guessing it didn't work when you're in menus. i was going to try making potions to see if the same thing happened in alch, but *now* when i load that game it's even worse -- i went up a 3rd willpower skill (so not in menu mode there) and it didn't go up. what it did do was give an additional pop-up box, presumably the one where it should have said "your willpower went up!", but the box was empty, just the white border around the black space that flashed for a second. maybe because this char now has 20/10 levels and hasn't levelled up? i wouldn't mind being forced to level up at 10 or 11 if it meant this working.

ah, wish i had the comp skills to help out constructively. i looked at the script but it makes my eyes glaze over. guess i'm one of those ten people who don't understand binary! or is it nine, and the tenth one does...

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: Found a bug -- Ummm [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2861329 - 07/28/04 05:14 PM

I'm not a scripting wizard or anything, but could it be this line?

Code:

If ( MenuMode == 1 )
Return
EndIf




It's at the beginning of the Bal_Antimunchkin script.

...

Not sure about the other bugs yet...

...

Man, I really gotta install the TESC here at work Notepad sucks

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ppi
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Does this script work? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2861412 - 07/28/04 05:38 PM

"If you gain any 3 skill levels tied to the same attribute that attribute goes up (permanently) by one.


If you gain 10 major/minor skill levels, you get the option to level up with 3 coins (same as original), but only 1x (as opposed to up to 5x) for any skill.

Result: You no longer have to plan your skills. Yeeha!"
(quick question when you say -option- up above does that mean you can level up OR gain stats each 3 skill levels, not both)

Well I was excited when I read this thread. I installed it and tested it out.

After gaining 3 skill levels in one skill my stats did -not- go up by one. I continued until I had gained a level and the 1x multiplier did work as it was explained to.

Anyway That description up above is *exactly* what I want. I recentyl got morrowind started playing, then after learning the level system I started training skills and avioding the use of certain ones. I quickly realized how it suddenly sucked the fun from the game. It seems you either have 'work' skills or suffer with gimped stats if you play the game normally.

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Re: Found a bug [Re: Sederien]
      #2861439 - 07/28/04 05:48 PM

Quote:

I believe the entire mod is purely created from global scripts. There should be very little local scripting for a leveling mod. Which of course brings me to why I need to delve through the mod myself. I need to track when each variable is accessed and perhaps simplify the scripting to work at any time (in menus, with books - which already works, and everywhere else). That and check for the proper attribute reduction scripts when jailed, etc.

*




sederien!

Can you tell me if this mod is actually
PLAYABLE
now?

---i see that someone just posted that they began a new game with this mod and his stats did not level up at all. then there is the bug descussions.

If this mod works, then i would be able to play my game, not play some "powergamer" appraoch to leveling.

but are these bugs that you find, "killing" for this mod?

someday, tooo, someone should make a proper readme, or something, that tells exactly how this works and how to use the leveling principals.

too...if i were to use this mod, now, to begin a new game with, if i find it currently buggy, can i remove it without starting a new game.

?????

at least you do not have the problem that another modder has, with a new realsed mod! he accidently left part of another project *in* the mod, and he told everyone to begin a new game, with it. Most of the stuff inside the room at the census office was not there due to that mistake!
then he corrected the error and put a revision up. aha!! bug gotya! the door out of the census office is disabled, now, so one cannot ever ever leave that first building, off of the dock at the beginning of the game!!

thanks...freestone

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Sederien
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Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: ]
      #2861650 - 07/28/04 06:45 PM

Ok... I'm going to take these in turn.

Madd_Mugsy:

Looks like it's a required script for most mods. But that's really only my impression at a glance. Now it might be called at an inappropriate time or it might need a secondary script to handle in-menu functions, but that I'll try (or anyone may try) after I finish working on MySQL. -- I'm halfway through or so...

Here's a direct quote from GhanBuriGhan's latest scripting guide:

Quote:

Ok, save and test your mod. Works fine now, doesnít it? Well, almost. Try the following: let yourself be cursed, and then open your inventory. Wait. See how the curse terminates after some time, without hurting you? Of course: the script is still running, but spell effects are only calculated while in game, not while you are in the menu. We donít want the player to get off the hook so easily, so we need to put something in our script that stops it from processing when we are in menu mode. Luckily there is the MenuMode function, which returns 1 when you enter the menu. So we can put this at the start of our script:



Code:
If ( MenuMode == 1 )

Return
Endif



It's on page 20, if you want to take a look for yourself.


ppi:

In response to your quick question... I just meant that you as a player always have the option as to when you want to sleep and thus level up. (I personally use Sleep or Suffer and don't have that choice myself ^^, but that's irrelevant.) The mod should not force you to choose between leveling up or gaining skills. Then again, it does seem to be in a rather buggy state.

Oh, and it really shouldn't be performing as you described. At the very least, non-menu related skills should be going up. Make sure you have this mod loading absolutely last and then it should be partially playable...


freestonew:

Playable? Yes.

Perfect? Not by a long shot.

There's apparently a lot of bugs that need to be hammered out and I plan to go through the scripts soon. (Though, again, my first priority at the moment is website creation.)

I personally have used the mod (clean the GMSTs first) with over a 137 mods on top (note: leveling.esp was loaded dead last with leveled_lists.esp being the only exception). And it worked to a limited extent. As noted, the menu skills don't seem to be triggering at the moment and that seems to be consistant across the board.

So, it could be described as playable as it is now, but you'd still have to put up with the following:

  • At the moment you gain absolutely no ability points from speechcraft, armorer, enchant, mercantile, etc. (anything involving menus to use).
  • We're still not sure what happens when you hit 100 in attributes.
  • We have no clue if any level downs occur (and they shouldn't occur to clarify).
  • As you can see, this mod has yet to undergo extensive testing. (Books giving you skills work just fine though).


Quote:

if i were to use this mod, now, to begin a new game with, if i find it currently buggy, can i remove it without starting a new game.




Considering the way this mod works, I do not believe that would be a problem at all. Though, hopefully either myself or another forum user will have an updated version of this mod soon. (Soon for me means up to two weeks or so.)

------------------------------------

Hope that helps answer those questions. I know I want this to get done too, but I have to say that I can't even touch this until the weekend. I will give an update, though, when I do.

Oh, and if you want, I'll repackage the mod in progress as a [WIP] w/ a readme and put up for download so there's a better general idea of what this does vs. what it's supposed to do.

Rest assured, I'll be working on it as soon as I can.

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Sederien
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Sederien]
      #2861676 - 07/28/04 06:51 PM

Actually, Madd_Mugsy, you might have found it. I just read over the page in more detail and the global script probably doesn't need a menu return function.

I'll see if I can do some editing tomorrow. Tonight, I'm booked from the end of work to way past when I should be sleeping for the next day.

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Sederien]
      #2861734 - 07/28/04 07:01 PM

Quote:


Looks like it's a required script for most mods. But that's really only my impression at a glance. Now it might be called at an inappropriate time or it might need a secondary script to handle in-menu functions, but that I'll try (or anyone may try) after I finish working on MySQL. -- I'm halfway through or so...

Here's a direct quote from GhanBuriGhan's latest scripting guide:

Quote:

Ok, save and test your mod. Works fine now, doesnít it? Well, almost. Try the following: let yourself be cursed, and then open your inventory. Wait. See how the curse terminates after some time, without hurting you? Of course: the script is still running, but spell effects are only calculated while in game, not while you are in the menu. We donít want the player to get off the hook so easily, so we need to put something in our script that stops it from processing when we are in menu mode. Luckily there is the MenuMode function, which returns 1 when you enter the menu. So we can put this at the start of our script:



Code:
If ( MenuMode == 1 )
Return
Endif



It's on page 20, if you want to take a look for yourself.






Yeah, I read that too. What it does is STOP the script when the menu is on. We don't want to do this because it means that skills like armorer will never get the stat increase.


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Sederien
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2861746 - 07/28/04 07:04 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I read that too. What it does is STOP the script when the menu is on. We don't want to do this because it means that skills like armorer will never get the stat increase.




Aye, see above.

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Sederien]
      #2861774 - 07/28/04 07:13 PM

I don't like how confusing this script is and I don't like the fact that stats can go down... so I'm rewriting the whole thing from scratch.

I should have it done in a day or two, depending on how much crap I have to do here at work

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Sederien
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2861798 - 07/28/04 07:18 PM

*laughing*

Go for it! You'll probably have more luck then I when it comes to both time and scripting. I'm off for the night. Good luck.

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Sederien]
      #2861835 - 07/28/04 07:27 PM

Also...

Skills are currently capped at 100, but attributes aren't.

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Miral007
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Sederien]
      #2861854 - 07/28/04 07:34 PM

Alright let me ask this.... are these same bugs present in the origional version that I didn't touch?
This will help me a lot in getting out the bugs

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Miral007]
      #2861886 - 07/28/04 07:43 PM

Yes I believe so.

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2861888 - 07/28/04 07:44 PM

Well -- now I'm finding the bug is not all there. I started a new game. (It's still very early, stil lvl 1). I'd noticed something in the script that looks like a timer or something along those lines. I've done a little mercantile/speechcraft. Each time one of those skills has improved, I've scrupulously exited the menu and counted a few seconds in my head before returning to the schmoozing and bartering process. Between illusion and the social skills, my personality skills have gone up seven times, and personality has increased twice. (Ill was only once, so both those 'sets-of-three' depended on in-menu-mode skill increases)

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Sederien
Acolyte

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2862010 - 07/28/04 08:23 PM

Heh, all of this makes me want to change the title to [WIP] A Simple Leveling Mod...

Or perhaps [WIP] (any combination of M, S, and B) Leveling Mod: Like the BSM Leveling Mod. (Standing for the Miral007, Sederien, Balor Levelling Mod)... Crud. I'm just tired. Good luck Miral.

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Sederien]
      #2863781 - 07/29/04 08:37 AM

Quote:

Heh, all of this makes me want to change the title to [WIP] A Simple Leveling Mod...

Or perhaps [WIP] (any combination of M, S, and B) Leveling Mod: Like the BSM Leveling Mod. (Standing for the Miral007, Sederien, Balor Levelling Mod)... Crud. I'm just tired. Good luck Miral.




thanks Sederien, thanks all....

that is encougaging about the speechraft....etc...working.

maybe i can use it then. I am "hesitating" to begin my new game, not because of the WIP, but because Aeleron is apparently going to upgrade one or more of his Enhancment mods and then the "Morrowind patch" is also going to be upgraded: a fresh new game *IS* required!

my!
one can never never really ever get To Play!!


freestone

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: ]
      #2865776 - 07/29/04 07:39 PM

I don't know anything about scripting, but I would like to have something like this in my game.

While new graphics and monsters and the like are all well and good, it's the rules that really makes or breaks a game imo.

For those who have fiddled with it so far, I think it would be helpful if you posted what you've discovered so far. Maybe us dummies can larn sumfin.

I want to add a few features of my own into this, as part of my own levelling rules. This esp gives you ability points for every 3 skill ranks PLUS three when you level. If you do the numbers, you'll see that it won't be too hard to be near all 100s in your abilities at top level.

I'd like to know where you indicate how many ranks you need before getting an ability point, so I can change it to 4 or 5. I'm also going to change the level requirements of maj/min from 10 to somewhere between 20-30, depending on how the numbers play out.

(edit) Oh! I was also wondering if anyone knows how to reverse the "polarity" of skill gain. I have a mod called Failure Based Progress which has your skills advance from failures, not successes, which I think is a great change.

Currently, it's very hard to advance low skills, since you rarely ever succeed, but it's super easy to advance top skills, since you almost always succeed. Many gamers simply use trainers until they're at least 30 in a skill, saying it's too hard to raise otherwise. I think it should be the opposite. You learn from your mistakes, not your wins. This allows you to raise your low skills quickly, when you need it most (raising levels quickly), while making it very hard to perfect your skill of 98.

Think olympic athletes or chess grandmasters. It takes intense amounts of training to gain that razor edge to your near-perfect skill. But everyone and their grandmother can tell you not to hold a sword by the blade, or try to buy goods cheaply by saying, "your stuff sucks. You should give it to me free."

I think raising skills from failures and not successes is how it should be, so... anyone who can help, thanks!(/edit)

Edited by Aeroldoth (07/29/04 07:50 PM)

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ppi
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: ]
      #2865835 - 07/29/04 07:56 PM

What do you mean by having a certian esp load last?

the level esp is on the bottom of my mod list, only because it's the last one I've installed. I don't know how to change the order the esp files load in.

Edited by ppi (07/29/04 08:04 PM)

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Sederien
Acolyte

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: ]
      #2865936 - 07/29/04 08:29 PM

Once again in order:

freestonew:

Quote:

my!
one can never never really ever get To Play!!





I agree, but the trick is to set a date, download the best, and play knowing that your next character will have the benefit of the best of the mods from your first and new mods. I.E. I'm just about to finish downloading all of mine and run them through conflict things knowing that by the time I'm done playing, Wizard's Island should be released! (No, I never trust a release day in full.)

Aeroldoth:

Quote:

For those who have fiddled with it so far, I think it would be helpful if you posted what you've discovered so far. Maybe us dummies can larn sumfin.




I'm sure we will soon enough.

--

Ok, as to the options for a mod, here's what I would do if I had the ability to code it. There will be an item in *gasp* the Census office at the beginning of the game. That static item would, when activated, give you the following choices:

How many skill levels should you gain for an attribute point?

2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.

Then I would make several versions of the mod with different stats equalling different attributes (i.e. one luck to security, the other agil to security).

That would be all that's necessary to fulfill the most basic of needs for players who want this mod (or at least the most common requests).

Quote:

Oh! I was also wondering if anyone knows how to reverse the "polarity" of skill gain. I have a mod called Failure Based Progress which has your skills advance from failures, not successes, which I think is a great change.




While I disagree with this method of leveling - as I assume that one who is not trained in a skill will find the road much more difficult without the add of even a single tutor - I actually can find no reason (off the top of my head) why the Failure Based Progress mod shouldn't work with the MSB Leveling Mod (or whatever you want to call it). I know from looking at the scripts that the leveling mod relies on your skill level going up. It does not affect how you get there or why you get there. Thus, changing the scripts to level up another way (as in the FBP mod) shouldn't affect the leveling mod. If anyone wants to test this, please let us know! (I'm still learning MySQL at the moment. Halfway done!!!)

ppi:

Ok... Well, we knew the mod was buggy as it stands now. If it's last in the list, it's where it should be. Anyway, this program at the bottom of the linked page will let you switch the order of loaded mods (but you need java support to run it).

Good luck all.

-----------------

As for the rest, well, I know Miral and others are working on it as hard as they can. I'm sure we'll have some progress soon.

By the way, to Miral and anyone else working on the mod, I'd be more then happy to host the finished product if need be.

--------------------
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The Madd Leveler website.

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Madd_Mugsy
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A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2866082 - 07/29/04 09:11 PM

Ok....

As promised yesterday, I have made a brand new leveling mod called the "Madd_Leveler".

It does the following:

-- Sets all the level up bonus abilities to 1.
-- Adds an ability point every 3 skill points
-- Is capped at 100 points max / skill / attribute (for purists)
-- Acrobatics -> Agility, Spear -> Strength
-- Makes it really quick to go up in skill points (this is just for testing, I plan to take it out once everyone has got it to work).

If you can get into the editor, you can edit my script to really easily let you do the following:

-- Alter the # of skill points per new ability point
-- Make it level you up automatically w/out resting (untested yet)
-- Allow your attributes to go over 100 (but not your skills)
-- Cap your skills at 99 (or whatever less than 100) which should let you keep advancing forever, especially if you uncap your attributes (untested yet)

I have only been able to do some basic testing since I'm at work
So I know for sure that acrobatics will add an agility point after 3 skill points are gained. But I thought I'd release it here anyway for you guys to play around with. I have cleaned it using TESTool.

The only weird bug I've seen so far is when you pick your race/class at the beginning. It may say that abilities have increased and up your stats a bit. And again when you review, if you change your race/class. But when you review, it seems to keep the values at the proper amounts... ....
...
Nevermind.... Bug fixed. I made it so that the script doesn't start until you talk to Sellus Gravius for the first time (when it tells you not to use persuasion on him). Hopefully this doesn't conflict with any existing mods. If you've already passed this part, then use this from the console:

StartScript, "Madd_Leveler"

Anyway... Here it is. I'm heading home now, so I'll check this thread for updates either later tonight (maybe) or tomorrow morning for sure.

Link: http://www.euro-rpg.com/plugins/uploads/ID4822-2-26-Madd_Leveler-20040730.zip

L8r.

--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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Sederien
Acolyte

Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 118
Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2866283 - 07/29/04 10:11 PM

Wonderful! I've downloaded it and will test it out right after I finish up my change_password PHP script.

Oh, and adding it to Sellus Gravius might conflict with my most useful mod of all: Quick Char - For all your testing needs!

Then again, it might not.

--------------------
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ppi
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2866317 - 07/29/04 10:23 PM

The new script is working properly. I gained stats with athletics blunt acrobatics and unarmored.

Problem is the skill gain is insanely fast. I was gaining blunt with each successful strike.

Also TESconstruction set is what you use to make/edit scripts?

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Sederien
Acolyte

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Re: A whole new mod [Re: ppi]
      #2866388 - 07/29/04 10:42 PM

Great.

That's for testing.

Yes.

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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2866666 - 07/30/04 12:01 AM



Oh well.

I just spent several hours testing Balor's(?) orginal levelling mod, as well as miral's. I was able to gain a point for every three ranks I advanced. Some here has said they couldn't, but I never saw this.

I used a char with 100 speed and 21 short blade. She gained three ranks and a message appeared saying my speed went up, but the menu showed I didn't.

I then went fighting, contracted helljoint, which lowered my speed to 85, and then gained a point to speed, bringing me to 86. When I cured the disease, I went back to 100, not 101, so I think that part's good. I tried this in both mods.

I gained ranks in multiple skills, and gained a point every time. I also did 2 armorer/1 long blade, and gained a str without probs.

Lastly, I looked at the changes in the mods, and noticed that Balor also changed the amount of hp you gain per level. He changed fLevelUpHealthEndMult from 0.10 to 0.05, halving your gain, as well as, of course, acrobatics from str to agi.

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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2866849 - 07/30/04 01:10 AM

Well, I haven't had a chance to extensively test it just yet. But the scripts seem to be working perfectly in and out of the menus. I had no problems at all.

Once you get this all cleaned and set, let me know. ^^ And good work! We all appreciate it.

--------------------
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MysticResearcher
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2867178 - 07/30/04 04:31 AM

Madd_Mugsy,

I checked out your mod, and I really like it. But I think I found a bug. I don't know if it affects the other scripts as well though.

(Running MW no Expansions, just FYI)
When I cast a fortify skill spell, the script thinks I improved my skills, and set's it's last variable to the fortified value. It also updated the stats points variable by one.

This is gonna cause trouble with the bound spells. That's three attribute points that you might not be able to get back.

I was thinking that if one more skill check was put in the script to see if it is more than 1 above it's global variable then it wouldn't trigger?
(Course that would lead to issues with increasing your skills while fortified. )

I really like this idea, and would like to see it as bug free as it can be.

Anyway, thanks for the mod.


--------------------
----------------------------------------

Shhhh! The voices in my head are trying to tell me something.

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2868170 - 07/30/04 12:44 PM

sederien,

i played a bit more w/ the "bsm" version and my mode of religiously exiting menu whenever i went up continued to work for barter/speech, it also worked w/armorer and alchemy. then just for kicks i kept making potions w/out exiting the menu each time, and when i quit after going up 6 or 7 lvls it didn't give me any intelligence. I'm guessing your idea of giving options at char.generation of how many points to level up, and your idea of different .esps, will be more difficult. personally, i think it's enough if the readme just tells you what things to change in cs to change governing attributes, etc. i'm guessing anyone who can use the forums, d/l, unzip and install a mod can follow that much -- anyways, i can.

madd_muggsy, i haven't tried your script yet, though i'm about to. but i have looked at it -- wow, thanks so much for not only joining this but also for making something w/such great commentary! it makes changing a governing skill in the script as easy as changing the point cost of a magic effect to make feather a cheap spell!

i'm excited that this is -- fingers crossed -- getting close to completion. now, m_m, if only i knew what exactly made this so fast-leveling for testing purposes and i could set it back to normal....

oh, actually, m_m, a request for your final version would be to have the script and the setting separate -- i'm happy w/a lot of the changes from adventurers and would want to be able to keep those (increase per successful use, fatigue cost of running/jumping/attacking as well as some other things) when i've installed the leveller.

--------------------
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Sederien
Acolyte

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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2868182 - 07/30/04 12:50 PM

I don't think you'll have to worry about the Madd_Leveller making any changes to the speed in which you increase in skills. The only change that will need to be edited on preference will likely be the change made here:

Spear = Strength
Acrobatics = Agility

That should be it.

--------------------
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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2868256 - 07/30/04 01:16 PM

sederien, yeah, i just meant the "accelerated for testing purposes" thing. but i think it must be the fMajor/Minor/MiscSkillBonus GMSTs. so i'm just gonna set them back to the default levels and then try madd_muggsy's version w/the character i had been using under the bsm version. how's it going conquering mySQL ?

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2868282 - 07/30/04 01:25 PM

I just changed three variables for testing:

fMajorSkillBonus (default 0.75)
fMinorSkillBonus (default 1.00)
fMiscSkillBonus (default 1.25)

I reduced these to like 0.10 or so, which makes it go up really really fast

On the fortifying bug...

Firstly, thanks for catching this.

I've adjusted the check from:

If (Current Skill - Last Skill) >= 1 Then...

To

If (Current Skill - Last Skill) == 1 Then...

Hopefully that will fix it.

Also...

I've tested the automatic leveling, and the skill capping and they seem to work properly . Are these things that you guys are interested in? Auto-leveling means you don't need to rest to level up (It just brings up the menu when you're ready). Skill capping means that if you set it to 99, for instance, you can keep gaining levels/attributes after you've maxed out all your skills. I can cap or uncap the attributes at 100 or whatever too.

Let me know ASAP and I'll put up a new version.

BTW, thanks for the nice comments about my comments... That's what happens when you're a computer programmer in real life

--------------------
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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2868312 - 07/30/04 01:33 PM

Quote:


oh, actually, m_m, a request for your final version would be to have the script and the setting separate -- i'm happy w/a lot of the changes from adventurers and would want to be able to keep those (increase per successful use, fatigue cost of running/jumping/attacking as well as some other things) when i've installed the leveller.





All I changed were the attributes assigned to the Spear and Acrobatics skills. I think that they're now the same as Adventurers.... Not 100% sure, as I don't use it. I didn't touch anything else in the skills section. You will need to alter the script slightly if these are different though, as I had to hard-code the attributes for each skill into the script, since I couldn't figure out how to derive them from the skills. It would be so cool if they had implemented a full OO scripting interface (like VBA in MS Office) so we could check and edit tons more than we can right now.

I could also make a separate Adventurers compatible version after we settle on some of the features if you really want.

edit:

BTW, another thing we can do is assign multiple attributes to a single skill. For instance, Security could be Intelligence and Luck. This could get pretty fancy/complicated if we wanted it to

another edit:

I just checked the Adventurers docs.
In that mod:

Spear->Agility
Acrobatics->Endurance
Athletics->Endurance


--------------------
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Edited by Madd_Mugsy (07/30/04 02:00 PM)

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2868394 - 07/30/04 02:04 PM

madd_m, i found the three gmsts and put them back to what they were. as far as i'm concerned, no need to make a separate "adventurers compatible" or anything -- no biggie for the end-user to just tweak a word here or there, especially since i already also tweak my own copy of adventurers -- would you then be making an alexandrian_adventurers compatible .esp? i'd feel guilty for even thinking about asking for it.

edit: adv actually leaves acro as strength (at least the 2 versions i've ever used) although the docs say different, they had a number of little errors like that w/encumbrance, etc. spear/athletics did change like you said. end edit.

my opinion on automatic levelling is -- no thanks. since hitpoints only increase on levelling, i'll want to control that at least until 7 or so -- maybe even until level 10 if i'm playing a bosmer or breton, not to mention lvled lists for bad guys and loot i might not feel ready to handle yet.

now, having skills be governed by multiple attributes is, very, very interesting. i always liked fallout's way of handling that. i keep thinking that "per" in mwind should incorporate perception as well as personality (only way that illusion makes sense to me) and that maybe it should govern all or part of sneak, marksman, maybe even security as well. and it improves roleplaying possibilities if you can think "i'm not so much a burly, claymore-swinging master swordsman as i am a lithe and graceful master of my katana" -- and since blades (faction) care about long blade and light armor, doesn't that sound like them?

it might be interesting if conjuration was something like 2/3 intelligence and 1/3 personality, since you are more or less "interacting" with the things you summon from the outerplanes. i like making all 4 armors endurance skills, since you have to get hurt to get better at them, but maybe light could be agi/end, un spd/end, and hvy/med remain purely end so that those guys remain tougher than the rest of us. hmm...fallout-style perks anyone? but that's probably covered under the 50,001 bethesda/fallout 3 threads.

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Edited by alexandrian_librarian (07/30/04 02:10 PM)

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ppi
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2868453 - 07/30/04 02:20 PM

since you fixed the rate gain can you post the esp?

Right now I'm watching a rat chew on my guy so he can get a good edurance multiplier from his armor skill gain...

Automatic leveling isn't something I want. Alot of these possible features sound interesting, but I would like to stick more to the original game, until I have more experience with it.

Edited by ppi (07/30/04 02:28 PM)

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2868459 - 07/30/04 02:21 PM

I just changed all my attribute counters from shorts to floats

It's not going to be too hard to allocate points to multiple stats for a single skill. This way you could do things just like you said, 1/3 in one skill and 2/3 in another, or whatever.

HOWEVER, this does pose some interesting complications. If you're splitting up the points between different attributes, you'll need to keep in the ratio between attributes in mind when workind your skills.
IE: Acrobatics is .5 agil, .5 str. Spear is .2 endurance, .6 str, .2 agil. You work both and get 1.1 str.

It's set up right now so that if you have, say, enough for a 1.25 gain stored up, you'll only get one point, and lose the 0.25..... Nevermind, I could fix that pretty easily so you don't lose your extra partial points. (In fact I'll do that right now -- BTW these changes won't break the original script if we decide to scrap this idea)

It'd be easiest to do this so that every skill is allocated to the same number of attributes with the same ratio. That way you wouldn't need to keep checking how much more you need to work each one to see an increase.

IE: Acrobatics is .5 agil, .5 str. Spear is .5 endurance, .5 str. You work both and get 1.0 str.


--------------------
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Sederien
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Reged: 07/16/04
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2868472 - 07/30/04 02:24 PM

Personally I'd leave the auto-leveling out for two reasons:

  • Each player has their own playing style and if they want to become a god without sleeping at level 1, so be it.
  • From a compatibility perspective: *KISS*

As for the capping... Well, I've never actually played up to the point where that would become an issue for me. I'd probably prefer the regular rules stay in place on this for two more reasons:

  • It prevents Agility from ever reaching say, 10000 and instantly killing you any jump. ^^
  • From a compatibility perspective: *KISS*


That should be all.

Oh, and MySQL/PHP is going nicely, thank you. I'm about 60% through and enjoying ever minute of it... Possibly too much.

And assuming this works, Madd_Mugsy:

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: ppi]
      #2868501 - 07/30/04 02:31 PM

ppi,

if you have the .esp, you can go into tes construction set that came w/the game. in cs, go to file, open, choose 'clean madd_leveller.' click on it so it both checks the box and sets it as active file. when it's open, go under 'gameplay' on the top. choose 'settings' a box called 'game settings' will open. choose the 'gameplay' tab. click on 'ID' and it will put at the top the values that begin w/an asterisk -- the asterisk means those were changed from the original settings. the first three should be

fMajorSkillBonus -- change to 0.75
fMinorSkillBonus -- change to 1.00
fMiscSkillBonus -- change to 1.25

you can change them by left-clicking -- not dbl. clicking -- on the number (the 'value' side). save the .esp. run testool or some other cleaner that ditches 'evil' gmsts. normally it would tell you 72 gmsts were deleted -- in this case, since those three will be returning to their original values, testool (or similar) will tell you it has deleted 75 gmsts.

i'm sure someone will correct me if these instructions are wrong -- but i'm pretty sure they're right.

--------------------
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2868537 - 07/30/04 02:40 PM

Quote:

Personally I'd leave the auto-leveling out for two reasons:

  • Each player has their own playing style and if they want to become a god without sleeping at level 1, so be it.
  • From a compatibility perspective: *KISS*

As for the capping... Well, I've ........





hi Selderien, and all....

I am getting a slight urge to start my new game soon. I am assuming, right, that if i do this, start a new game, and then about five hours into the game at level 2, i can then go ahead and install the leveling mod.
which ever one gets really ready, that is.....

I sympathize with you all for testing, as who knows how far down the gameroad a bug could appear! say, at level 20, wearing some ring of attribute-increase, hoses, ruins, the script!!

a * thoughouh* bug tester would have to play the entire game
from beginning to end, Just To Be Sure!

and then there are the 800+ mods that interact!
certain mods Could Kill the leveling scripts: who is to know

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: ppi]
      #2868548 - 07/30/04 02:42 PM

By popular demand:

Version 0.2b

http://www.euro-rpg.com/plugins/uploads/ID4840-2-26-Madd_Leveler+v0.2b-20040730.zip

Changes:
-- Fixed fortifying bug
-- Restored skill gain rate to normal

--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2868556 - 07/30/04 02:43 PM

Quote:

I just changed all my attribute counters from shorts to floats





ah, the discussion has gone beyond my ability to follow...this is what happens when you're a liberal arts major in real life. just kidding -- i know lots of english majors take up coding, in fact since i've studied a little formal logic other students have told me i should be able to program. i'm still just trying to figure out what i think should be a simple (if lengthy) script for my help-mages-be-organized tool (little-read thread called something like "mage service npcs? how do they...")

if only my algebra teachers had said "someday this will help you customize CRPGs to your liking" i might have done my homework once in a while!

i think i follow your observation on consistent ratios and i think that makes sense. if they all go by halves then skills that are 'pure' are essentially just two halves to one attribute, right?

but maybe that should be a separate .esp, though of course one fully compatible w/leveler? again, i am just crazy happy that this part has come together. anything else is gravy, y'know?

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: ]
      #2868588 - 07/30/04 02:48 PM

Quote:

a * thoughouh* bug tester would have to play the entire game
from beginning to end, Just To Be Sure!




I *wish* I had that much free time! As it is, I've never come close to having enough time just to do the main quest.

You guys are going to have to let me know if there's any mod conflicts, because I don't have any mods here at work



--------------------
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Sederien
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: ]
      #2868595 - 07/30/04 02:49 PM

Well, Madd-Mugsy just solved your problem then. The version that basically does exactly what I originally requested way back when is up in the above post.

That should work perfectly, but now we're looking at new features, etc.

By the way, Madd_Mugsy. Please keep a copy of version 0.2b separate from the next so that we have a few options when using the mod. ^^ I'd be happy to put together a full readme for the mod(s) should you want one.


And one more thing:

Quote:

if only my algebra teachers had said "someday this will help you customize CRPGs to your liking" i might have done my homework once in a while!






--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2868660 - 07/30/04 03:00 PM

Quote:

By the way, Madd_Mugsy. Please keep a copy of version 0.2b separate from the next so that we have a few options when using the mod.




For sure. I think the easiest way to do this is to have more than one esp in the zip file and a nice readme describing the features of each. Of course, you could only have one of them running at one time.

Quote:

^^ I'd be happy to put together a full readme for the mod(s) should you want one




That would be sweet!
Can you just post it up on here and I'll include it in the next zip file?

BTW, aren't databases fun? I'm a SQL Server man, myself.

Cheers!




--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


Edited by Madd_Mugsy (07/30/04 03:03 PM)

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Sederien
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2868669 - 07/30/04 03:02 PM

Consider it done... I'll have it posted in 20 minutes (or else I won't be able to post until tomorrow!) Either way, you'll get one.

--------------------
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Sederien
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2868802 - 07/30/04 03:28 PM

*****************************************************************

The Elder Scrolls III
MORROWIND:
The Madd Leveler

*****************************************************************

Index:

1. Description
2. Installing the Plugin
3. Playing the Plugin
4. Save Games
5. Credits and Thanks
6. Contact Me


*****************************************************************

1. DESCRIPTION

*****************************************************************

This mod may soon have several different versions, but as of 0.2b
only one version is available. The scripts used in the mod are
heavily commented, however, and any modifications can be easily
made through the Morrowind TES.

The following changes will be made to Morrowind's leveling
system when the mod is properly installed:

-- Sets all the level up bonus abilities to x1. (rather then x5)
-- Adds an ability point every 3 skill points. (to balance above)
-- Is capped at 100 points max / skill / attribute (for purists)
-- Skill Changes: Acrobatics -> Agility, Spear -> Strength

New in 0.2b

-- Fixed fortifying bug
-- Restored skill gain rate to normal

(NOTE: This mod should *not* be incompatable with any other mods
that affect the rate at which skills increase, etc. The only
incompatibilities may be mods which change the attributes skills
are tied to... But you can edit this script in the TES:CS.)


*****************************************************************

2. INSTALLING THE PLUGIN

*****************************************************************

To install the plugin, choose the version (only one currently)
that you'd like to install and unzip the corresponding esp into
your Morrowind Data Files directory.


*****************************************************************

3. PLAYING THE PLUGIN

*****************************************************************

Simply check the plug-in version you installed and play the game
as usual.


*****************************************************************

4. Save Games

*****************************************************************

This should not invalidate your old save games. But making a
backup copy is always good...

If you save your game while this plugin is loaded, you may
encounter error messages when you reload the saved game without
the plugin. But you will be able to continue on with the original
game.


*****************************************************************

5. Credits and Thanks

*****************************************************************

This mod was fully scripted and edited by Madd_Mugsy. However,
many people contributed to the creation of this mod and should
be recognised for their input:

Sederien - For the initial request and idea.
Miral007 - For scripting attempts and lessons.
ppi, alexandrian_librarian, freestonew, MysticResearcher, and
Aeroldoth - For bug testing and general helpful comments.

Thanks as well to Bethesda and the Morrowind staff for such a
great game!

Cleaned with TES Advanced Mod Editor (by Erik Benerdal).


*****************************************************************

6. Contact me

*****************************************************************

Fill this part, Madd_Leveler. Or leave as below:

Any questions or concerns can be brought to (Your email), Sederien
at sederienATcosmicspeck.com, or the Elder Scrolls forums at:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=
UBB7&Number=2815983&fpart=&PHPSESSID=



-------------------

And yes, SQL is sweet.

Also, I have no problems with supporting/hosting this mod. Let me know by pm if you'd like a page set up like the one in my sig. I'll make a better one in time, of course. But first I need to get through all of PHP. ^^

I'm off till tomorrow.

--------------------
Currently working on:
The Less Generic NPC Series website.
The Madd Leveler website.

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ppi
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2869074 - 07/30/04 04:23 PM

Alexander I appreciate your effort to explain how to edit it, but currently I'm avioding any use of TES construction. I don't even have it installed. I got into scripting for a game I once played, and it never ended. I always had something to improve on and I never was satisfied with my work and I never just played the game from then on. I just don't want to even start with morrowind. So with that in mind I'd like to give a big thank you to the people who DO script these things. I fully appreciate what you do, and I -hope- you get enjoyment out of it because I certainly did not.

Madd Mugsy thank you, this script will let me play without having to employ retarded methods of leveling. And thank you Sederien for bringing this up, I wouldn't have ever thought of it any time soon. It seriously ruins my experience everytime after I start a character and get into the meat'n'potatoes of his developement then realize- I can't gain my blunt weapon skill> until I gain more heavy armor, because I need the endurance multiplier, ect and on and on with each level. Drives me nuts *_*

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Re: A whole new mod [Re: Sederien]
      #2869081 - 07/30/04 04:24 PM

*balor should get props in the credits section

and, coupla teeny tiny typos: section 1, "made through the Morrowind TES. " should say cs or construction set. same section, a few lines down -- "be incompatable with any" should be "incompatible"

and even more picayune and persnickety -- same section -- while "attributes skills are tied to" is gramatically okay, adding "that" so that it's "which change the attributes that skills are tied to." or even "the attributes that individual [or specific or particular] skills are tied to" may be clearer for those who'll be seeing this for the first time. actually, "governed by" might be still better, since that's the language in the cs.

and, by way of getting in touch with my inner eighth-grade girl (my inner child's girlfriend, don'tcha know), sederien and madd_muggsy, these are for you.




--------------------
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: ppi]
      #2869103 - 07/30/04 04:28 PM

ppi -- gotcha, i see your point. cool that they fixed it for both of us!

--------------------
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Miral007
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2869291 - 07/30/04 05:14 PM

Wow go into my cave and start working, come out for a drink and someone has already finished it! Heh good job, guess I'll go back in my cave and play Battlefield Vietnam

--------------------
If I have told you I will make something and you haven't heard from me since, send me a PM. I'm quite forgetful.
Reality is mankind's greatest illusion.
-- (\/) ][ |R /-\ |_


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error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869323 - 07/30/04 05:23 PM

M_M, so i d/led version 2 and, since i want to change a couple governing attributes, opened it in the cs. when i tried to save the script, i got an error relating to these lines:

If (mlRunOnce == 0)
Set RunOnce To 1
playsound "restoration hit"
Messagebox "Madd_Leveler Enabled!"

i reloaded it from the zipped file and got the same error mesage, [ syntax error line 100 could not find variable "RunOnce" ]

i didn't encounter any errors w/the first version. i'm guessing it's something to do w/it being mlRunOnce and then RunOnce? Anyway i'll try that for now, adding/deleting the "ml" -- in the first version there's no "ml" for the line(s) that look like that.

--------------------
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ppi
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2869352 - 07/30/04 05:32 PM

I get the same error tested it and it doesn't give an attribute when you gain 3 skill levels.

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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: ppi]
      #2869364 - 07/30/04 05:36 PM

Quote:

I get the same error tested it and it doesn't give an attribute when you gain 3 skill levels.




ahh, i knew it was too good to be true! they're just f*c**n* with our heads! it's a communist plot: the manchurian mod!

CS was still dissatisfied when i removed the "ml" from the "mlRunOnce", so instead i added "ml" to the "RunOnce" and it let me save. about to try a little in-game testing.

--------------------
ewww....how'd the bandersnatch get all frumious?

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: ppi]
      #2869372 - 07/30/04 05:40 PM

My bad.

I forgot to rename a variable in one spot and for some reason it didn't catch it when I saved the script like it usually does.

I renamed Runonce to mlRunOnce so it would reduce the possibility of conflict with other mods.

I'll be posting version 0.3 in the next hour or so (hopefully).



--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869387 - 07/30/04 05:47 PM

Massive props to Sederien for the readme. Next version to come out very soon, with multiple esps to choose from.

Speaking of which, what versions does everyone want to see?

I have two so far (since no one's interested in the auto-leveling thing)

-- Standard (as in version 0.2b -- yes, without the mlRunOnce bug)
-- No Caps (attrbutes capped at 5000, skills capped at 99 which allows really high leveling

Any more?

I can change the skill points reqd for a stat increase, the speed at which skills are gained, etc.

I'd rather save adding multiple attributes to individual skills for a future version, but it's totally doable

--------------------
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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869452 - 07/30/04 06:03 PM

Ok, I'm building it now.

Any other versions will have to wait

But not very long knowing me

Look for it in 5-10 minutes.

--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869459 - 07/30/04 06:05 PM

i concur -- release these two so far, save the multi-attribute-skills for a future version, undoubtedly to be preceded by much back and forth in the forums over which attributes they should be. also i think leave the speed-of-skill-increase and 10 major/minor-points-to-level-up alone, at least for now. (imo, no reason at all they need to be changed anyway, but my mind is ever-changeable)

i think the best thing for now is to share this awesome thing w/the whole freakin' universe!

note my comment above on tiny typos in the readme, sederien's initial and other early posts mention balor's original work which gave everyone the idea in the first place (a la herbalism) and not like it's such a big deal (i am not, in real life, employed by a long-destroyed library in the northern portion of africa) but i still think he or she should get credit.

--------------------
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Madd_Mugsy
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Version 0.3 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869470 - 07/30/04 06:08 PM

New Version (0.3) with a nice readme:

Madd_Leveler 0.3

Please report any bugs to me via this thread ASAP and I will fix them ASAP.

--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2869476 - 07/30/04 06:09 PM

Quote:

note my comment above on tiny typos in the readme, sederien's initial and other early posts mention balor's original work which gave everyone the idea in the first place (a la herbalism) and not like it's such a big deal (i am not, in real life, employed by a long-destroyed library in the northern portion of africa) but i still think he or she should get credit.




Done and noted thanks

--------------------
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Neldor
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869478 - 07/30/04 06:09 PM

I have an idea, why don't you make a version with "iLevelupTotal" (how many skillpoints you need before level up) changed to something like 999999999999 and add 1 hp (or anything, it's an example) every time it's rised endurance and 1 magicka everytime it's rised willpower? That way we'll have a full levelless system.

P.d.: Maybe a TC will be needed for the problems that will arise with the leveled lists....buffff

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Neldor]
      #2869485 - 07/30/04 06:13 PM

Quote:

I have an idea, why don't you make a version with "iLevelupTotal" (how many skillpoints you need before level up) changed to something like 999999999999 and add 1 hp (or anything, it's an example) every time it's rised endurance and 1 magicka everytime it's rised willpower? That way we'll have a full levelless system.

P.d.: Maybe a TC will be needed for the problems that will arise with the leveled lists....buffff




Yeah I thought about that too, but the leveled list thing would have you fighting wimpy creatures forever.

--------------------
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ppi
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869516 - 07/30/04 06:24 PM

Thats a good idea. You could fix it much like the attributes are fixed... Keep the levels but remove all bonuses recieved from them. That way you'll still 'level up' in the games mind. And by recieving attributes/health/magika through skill gain and attribute gain you'll still be near the same 'power' to the normal system.

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Future Version? [Re: ppi]
      #2869547 - 07/30/04 06:30 PM

Yeah we can definitely 100% control health like that. Not 100% on magicka and fatigue, but I'm pretty sure that could work for them too.

To get around the leveled list problem, we could just use Player->SetLevel and phantom-level up. I could integrate this with the auto-leveling part of the script.

BUT...

If there's no level up menu, then how can you ever gain points for your Luck attribute ?



--------------------
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ppi
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: ppi]
      #2869548 - 07/30/04 06:30 PM

Theres a couple issues that popped into my mind. First off it 'could' be balanced by just running the numbers.

Figure out the health/mana of a hypothetical character using the original morrowind leveling system

Then figure out what it would be if you went through and gained the same level in all the same skills with this 'new' leveless system

Also on a side note players would NEED to have starting health calculated completely differently in this version, because it would be much more benificial to start out with less endurance so you can 'gain' the maxium amount possible and therefore have more health. Although I am very unfamilar with normal health levels for morrowind and how big or small they range in the higher levels, since my highest level character is level 3...

Edited in: for luck it would have to be added to at least one skill, and again I see an issue with starting attributes. If only one skill gained luck then you could make plenty of characters incapable of getting 100 luck, because you'd max out the skill before you got enough attribute gains from it. This would apply to other attributes. Each skill would probably need at least 4 skills, or you could allow players to continue to gain attributes after the skill gain stops somehow?

Edited by ppi (07/30/04 06:37 PM)

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Neldor
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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869551 - 07/30/04 06:31 PM

"Creature Intensity" and "Unleveled creatures" can be also a solution, but what about creature mods like Giants...etc? Unlevel all those creatures would be a lot of work

Link: http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB7&Number=2743095&Forum=All_Forums&Words=unleveled&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1year&Main=2742883&Search=true#Post2743095


Edit: About phantom level-up... AWESOME. About the Luck attribute... THAT'S a good question Madd_Mugsy

Edited by Neldor (07/30/04 06:44 PM)

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Re: error in line 100 of Madd_leveler? [Re: ppi]
      #2869610 - 07/30/04 06:45 PM

Quote:

you could allow players to continue to gain attributes after the skill gain stops somehow?




This is what happens when you use the "no caps" version of the mod. Skills are capped at 99, so they can still increase to 100 (and go back to 99) for leveling and attribute gain. You could just cap the attribute @ 100, and the skill @ 99.


But yes we would need to have more than one attribute for each skill. Even if the only extra attribute is luck for a few particular skills (I'm thinking sneak, security, etc)

EDIT:

OR!!!! It could go up an equal amount for ALL skills! Every skill would give you 0.10 luck or something.

This latest tangent should probably go into a separate esp...

--------------------
If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


Edited by Madd_Mugsy (07/30/04 06:48 PM)

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Madd_Mugsy
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On another note... [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869638 - 07/30/04 06:51 PM

Tangent:

Wow look at all the views on this thread I bet Sederien never thought his idea would generate this much interest

--------------------
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Neldor
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Re: On another note... [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869694 - 07/30/04 07:05 PM

That mod looks better and better...

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Re: On another note... [Re: Neldor]
      #2869712 - 07/30/04 07:11 PM

Does anyone know the formulas for gaining health, fatigue & magicka?

I think magicka = Intelligence, but am not sure how it goes up each level.

--------------------
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VenomByte
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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869716 - 07/30/04 07:12 PM

I apologise for not reading through the entire thread, but I can't help but notice the comments about the original mod (minus leveldown) not working for menu based skills.

This is wrong. It does work for armorer, speechcraft, etc. You just need to stop doing it after the skill increase (get out of menu mode) and it'll work as normal.

I've been using the original mod for at least a year now, so I'm fairly sure of this
I'd also answer the Q about what happens when you hit 100, but it's about 8 months since I played the same char long enought to get to that point
If I recall correctly, the stats will stop going up - you won't get over 100. Losing skills will still put the stat down again normally though, I think.

--------------------
LichCraft 0.95 beta - discussion thread
Homepage and download link

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Re: Well, yeah... not really playable just yet. [Re: VenomByte]
      #2869804 - 07/30/04 07:34 PM

Yes, I was incorrect when I said that in Balor's mod the attributes could go over 100. I had forgotten that modStrength, etc, doesn't let your stats go over 100.


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alexandrian_librarian
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magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869821 - 07/30/04 07:41 PM

i don't know about fatigue going up, but magicka does not increase when you level up (some mods change this), but it always remains something determined from your intelligence and other modifiers (birthsign, race). default is magicka score == intelligence before anything else.

it is my sad duty to regretfully inform you that when punching scribs wearing bound gloves, 3 hth increases did not lead to a speed gain. waited for the spell to wear off, still no gain. went and punched a scrib w/out bound gloves, got the speed gain after 3 lvls. i've got the leveling mod (latest version, standard version, w/light and un assigned to endurance in the script and in the "character->skills" menu, testooled to kill the 72 gmsts and to load the madd leveler last)

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2869929 - 07/30/04 08:11 PM

Do the gloves fortify your HtH skill or your speed attribute?

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2869954 - 07/30/04 08:20 PM

one glove fortifies hth skill 10 points, the other one fortifies agility attribute 10 points -- bound boots fortify speed 10 points, each of the bound weapons fortifies the appropriate skill 10 points (longbow: marksman, battle axe: axe, etc), shield fortifies block 10 points, cuirass fortifies all 4 armor skills by 5 points each, helm also fortifies all 4 armor skills by 5 points each (sorry if too much info, but i figure tmi better than too little)

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ppi
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2870297 - 07/30/04 10:33 PM

I tried version 3 standard. No attribute gain for me. My character can't afford enchanted items yet. So I think something is disabling attribute gain, with standard version (haven't tried the other one).

Hopefully this means you did fix the fortify bug, just made a typo or something somewhere in version 3.

I recieve a gobal something error(sorry I forgot the name) when the game first loads also... probably the same problem that is preventing attribute gain.

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Madd_Mugsy
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: ppi]
      #2870866 - 07/31/04 02:42 AM

Ok sorry for the delay... real life intervened.

I think I have figured out the fortify bug, but will need some time to test it.

I'll post a new version ASAP, but it may not be til morning sometime (it's nearly 12am here now)

ppi -- not sure what your problem is yet. I'm assuming it's part of the fortify bug for now. In the meantime you can try to stop and start the script again thru the console:

StopScript, "Madd_Leveler"
StartScript, "Madd_Leveler"

L8r.

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fragonard
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2870881 - 07/31/04 02:52 AM

It's working fine for me - I really like it. One odd thing though, I was in an alchemy/enchant session and left the menu after each skill point but it didn't add to the intel attribute even after 9 points. I thought, no problem, I'll just add 3 pts by console. After about 5 minutes real time it added 1pt then another and another a few minutes apart ... so after leveling up and 10 minutes later, it all caught up.

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2870905 - 07/31/04 03:15 AM

Ahahahaha. I found and fixed the fortify bug

Will post a new version ASAP.

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2870917 - 07/31/04 03:24 AM

Get 0.4 here:

Madd Leveler Version 0.4

I tested the fortify thing and it worked perfectly w/a bound dagger for me. Other attributes increased properly too.

I'm going to hit the hay now. L8r guys.

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Sederien
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Re: A whole new mod [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2870944 - 07/31/04 03:54 AM

Ok... I'm gone for a few hours and yes, Madd_Mugsy, the view/post count nearly doubles!

Let me address things in order once again:

alexandrian_librarian:

Thanks for the spelling/grammatical notes. I was - as noted - a fair bit rushed and hadn't even run it through a proper spell checker. ^^

Much appreciated. (Especially how could I forget Balor!?!)

Miral007:

Heh, yeah. Was wondering where you had run off too... You're credited for the original attempt though. Thanks for the initial stab at this one.

Madd_Mugsy:

Thanks. And thanks again... We all appreciate it. And Iíll be making that site tomorrow or Sunday at the latest. Shall let people know in my sig when itís ready.

Oh, and I'll change it in the readme for the uploaded mod to the new site, but AT should probably be changed to @ in my address. I just didn't want to post it on the forum as it was considering the amount of web crawlers out there. (I have my own scripts to take care of that problem for my sites, but they require PHP). Hurrah for scripting languages!

ppi:

The health issue is still there, but was so minor compared to the actual leveling system that I didn't even mention it in the original request. Now that you bring it up, however...

There is a K(something) No Planning mod that attempted to make a dynamic health system thus:

Health was calculated based on your attributes every time you put on a special ring. Thus, you would always have the correct amount of health without having to worry if your endurance wasnít high enough in any particular level.

Would this be a good thing? I have no clue right now. Iíll think about it tomorrow. For now, Iím tired and gaining sleep levels is all I desire.

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MysticResearcher
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2870958 - 07/31/04 04:03 AM

Thanks M_M,

I just finished working on the fortify issue, and found a solution my self. I stopped to comment the code I used and by the time I got back here, you had .4 up.

Thanks and I am downloading it now.

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----------------------------------------

Shhhh! The voices in my head are trying to tell me something.

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: MysticResearcher]
      #2871024 - 07/31/04 04:57 AM

How sweet it is.

The fortified skills issue is as dead as a doornail. And the fix to it.
Man, it's so simple and effective. Beautiful, really.

Thanks man.

Edit: (Two posts in a row, didn't want to make it three.)

After some searching I think I found that No Planning mod on Morrowind Summit:
Kobu's Leveling Mod or Kobu's No Planning.

It appears to set the health to Endurance * 3, irrelevant of level.

Not sure if that's what y'all wanted to know, but I hope it helps.



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----------------------------------------

Shhhh! The voices in my head are trying to tell me something.

Edited by MysticResearcher (07/31/04 05:56 AM)

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: MysticResearcher]
      #2871300 - 07/31/04 08:17 AM

i remember trying that mod and not loving health = end * 3. but that was then...what do people think of that number? health effectively 90-300 under normal circumstances. i don't want any spoilers, but i'm guessing there are baddies w/substantially higher hit points than that.

so far looks like 0.4 is working fine w/enchanted items, etc. one small note that maybe should be added to the readme -- i switched to a different savegame and got an error message about a different value stored in the local -- does that mean it was still storing something from my previous game? it might also have been because that second savegame had been played with version 0.3. but i stopscripted it and startscripted it and it ran fine.

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Re: magicka, and...luck? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2871348 - 07/31/04 08:45 AM

actually -- if you want to increase magicka by level, may i suggest that the increased magicka be based on...luck? retain the intel = magicka, plus race and birthsign, so that at level 8 w/intel 65 you've still got 65 magicka + race/sign, but if you want it to go up at leveling, you dribble in a little luck.

i've always been a little dissatisfied w/intel=magicka because it means that it's wasteful to create a character (say, an orc master craftsman) who's really good at enchant and alchemty but not a spellcaster -- if you're putting that work into intel anyway, you're gonna want to put those points to use. but if magicka is not based on intelligence (or not entirely), maybe that's different? (and i think i'm swayed by these shared-world fantasies from the '80s, the "liavek" books, where magic was considered a function of "bound" luck)

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
      #2871518 - 07/31/04 10:25 AM

Quote:

Ahahahaha. I found and fixed the fortify bug

Will post a new version ASAP.






and this is only 12K?!

far cry from the 70+ k that the first version has!

yes NOW i can begin my game from square one! and all that.

my hats is off to you all, with work and life standing between fixing a very complicated mod! "complicated' in that there are so many game varibles that would have to be tested for!
be easy to test the mod for a new character at level one or two, but how about when he is at 30, dealing with those bound items, magic increases, amulets, rings, conjurgations
....not *only* in the mw/tib/bloodmoon, but from all of the 800+
mods, some of which have stuff like...
WATKIMS GAME IMPROVEMNETS!
[i noted that one the other day, i am hesitant to use that one, with the Leveler!!]

but you all did the best can can be done; nothing is perfect, in morrowind, or in life!!

freestone


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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: ]
      #2871657 - 07/31/04 11:30 AM

Quote:


but you all did the best can can be done; nothing is perfect, in morrowind, or in life!!

freestone





I see that aerelon has come out with a new version of enhanced/combat/blocking/journal/writing!
[all of the above!!! ]

mw marches on: i better git going or i will never ever Play!
NOW is a good time to start, with the leveling mod!!!


freestone

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Madd_Mugsy
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Testing time [Re: ]
      #2871754 - 07/31/04 12:23 PM

Ok, it's the looong weekend (BC day) and I be out of the loop here until monday or so. So I'll give you some things to think about until then:

Health, Magicka & Fatigue
-- Increase these by level or by attribute (& which & how much)?
-- They will be earned a point at a time, but should we increase them only when you've reached, say, five points?

Luck
-- Associate to which skills?

Multiple attributes per skill
-- is this a good idea? How many skills per attribute? And of course, which go with which?

Anyway, I'm going to do some playing/testing for a bit before my husband-ly duties kick in when my wife wakes up...

Have a good one!


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Sederien
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: ]
      #2871959 - 07/31/04 01:32 PM

Wakim's Game Improvements should not conflict with the mod in any way. In fact, I plan on using it in conjunction to make leveling up harder.

WGI just changes the rate at which levels increase. Not the actual levels themselves and with the scripts implemented in the Madd_Leveler, they not only don't conflict, they compliment.

Nonetheless, probably safest to have the Madd_leveler load last.

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VenomByte
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Sederien]
      #2871981 - 07/31/04 01:38 PM

With regards to associating attributes with skills, It's important to keep it so that each attribute is still fairly represented.

In vanilla MW, I think I'm right in saying that there are exactly three skills associated with each attribute. When adjusting which corresponds to which, and how many are linked to each skill, please try to keep this balanced.

Nothing infuriated me more than Adventurer's disregard for this when reassigning the skills
In fact, that's one of the main reasons I don't use it anymore!

--------------------
LichCraft 0.95 beta - discussion thread
Homepage and download link

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!! The unkillable fortify bug !! [Re: Sederien]
      #2872184 - 07/31/04 02:47 PM

I hate to say it, but the bug marches on. I *think* I'm only getting the fortify bug now when I have more than one attribute fortified, but I'm *definitely* getting it when I have more than one. It usually only hits one attribute, and the bug works by "redding out" the number for the attribute -- e.g., I'm wearing a constant effect pair of slippers that gives 10 each to willpower and intelligence, so that buffed they're 67 each. conjuration goes up, intelligence goes up. i notice that my intelligence number is the same as it was a second ago, but no longer in white.

i remove my...er...Slippers of the Slippery Scholar, and my will goes down to what it should be (57). my intelligence is now in red at 67 -- instead of giving me the one extra point, it apparently decided my buffed intelligence was my actual intelligence, then counted the loss, when item was removed (or spell wore off -- this has happened w/both items and spells), as a penalty or disease or whatever, so that restoring (altar/spell/potion) puts my intelligence at 67. this has happened, more than once, w/the following pairs -- intel/will (i think always intell with the problem, but not certain), strength/agility (i think always strength w/the problem), personality/luck (i think always personality w/the problem -- actually, this one i'm certain it's always been personality). it has not had any trouble recognizing the all-day shrine bonus that fortifies luck. and i believe that in each of these, when the bug was there, the fortify "F" in the lower-right of the screen was there and accurately reporting the applicable bonuses -- maybe that can be checked against changes when stats are upped?

hey, we passed a thousand views a while ago. shall we have a party?

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Sederien
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: VenomByte]
      #2872192 - 07/31/04 02:49 PM

Rest assured. The only change made in 0.4 (which - outside of any bug corrections - should stay unchanged and included with any future releases) keeps that balance. Acrobatics and Spear simply traded attributes:

Acrobatics now being agility and Spear now being Strength.

Outside of that change and the new skill/attribute (no-planning needed type) leveling system this mod creates, there are no balance changes within the game. In fact, as it stands, it's literally the perfect (imho) replacement to the old leveling system in such an open-ended world.

I can imagine that the only complaint would stem from those who are of the opinion that a character in Morrowind should be forced to make choices on attributes to increase (therefore creating a less jack-of-all-trades type character). This, of course, is a completely valid arguement and it boils down to play style.

Thankfully, we'll have a few ready made options for the Madd_Leveler by the time the whole project (as I now refer to it) is done.

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Sederien
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Re: !! The unkillable fortify bug !! [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2872216 - 07/31/04 02:56 PM

Quote:

hey, we passed a thousand views a while ago. shall we have a party?




Heehee. I was that 1000th customer. And perhaps we should... I brought the drinks: .

Actually, it's the amount of posts that really surprizes me. We've really had some great input for this mod the entire way through. Which reminds me to note that additional features are being considered and were asked about on page 8. I'll get some of my own comments in soon, but for the moment, I'm working on culling my mod list for my first full play through. (*gasp*)

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alexandrian_librarian
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: VenomByte]
      #2872239 - 07/31/04 03:02 PM

Quote:

In vanilla MW, I think I'm right in saying that there are exactly three skills associated with each attribute. When adjusting which corresponds to which, and how many are linked to each skill, please try to keep this balanced.




intelligence: conjure, enchant, alchemy, security (4). strength: long blade, blunt, axe, armorer, acrobatics (5). willpower: alter, mysticism, destroy, restore (4). personality: blather, bargain, illusion (3). the numbers per attribute vary.

the problem (or maybe just caution) to assigning acrobatics to agility is that all strength skills are now in the combat group (though armorer at least doesn't require melee). the problem w/the stock version is that stealth/mages types apparently can't build up more endurance (how many thieves fight with halberds? how many healers run around in ebony?). i see this as one of those issues of making a compromise between gameplay and the demands of what some like to call "realism" in the game.

i'd like to ask that people using version 0.4 of madd leveler test for the fortify bug when you have more than one attribute fortified at a time, which is the problem i'm still getting, and post their results. (edited to fix a typo)

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Edited by alexandrian_librarian (07/31/04 03:11 PM)

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fragonard
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Sederien]
      #2872442 - 07/31/04 03:52 PM

Actually, spear used to be under endurance in the std game. Now only med and heavy armor are under endurance - that makes even harder for a mage to boost endurance.

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Sederien
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: fragonard]
      #2872551 - 07/31/04 04:26 PM

Whoops! My bad. So it did...

Then, yes. We might need a slight rebalancing for endurance. Suggestions anyone?

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Sederien]
      #2872581 - 07/31/04 04:37 PM

well, my solution is one i read about in some thread somewhere on this site -- make all 4 armor skills governed by endurance. the rationale is that those skills only go up when you get hurt, so they should contribute to your hit points. and you can think of even an unarmored person learning to stand up to blows and not fall down/flee as increasing their endurance.

adventurers solution was also good, making athletics an endurance, leaving unarmored/light armor as spd/agility. that way med/hvy armor-users are stll the real tough guys, the only ones to have endurance rise quickly.

but since those tough guys are the ones who tend to start w/higher strength and endurance right from the census office, and since they're always rushing into battle, i figure they already get the "tough guy endurance/hit point bonus."

sederien, are you seeing the fortify bug w/0.4 when you have more than one attribute fortified at a time?

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fragonard
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2872618 - 07/31/04 04:49 PM

I agree, the same suffering that builds any armor skill should also build endurance. I understand the original idea that unarmored is associated with speed but being unarmored makes you faster by being unencumbered not by being beat up.

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2872671 - 07/31/04 05:13 PM

Quote:



sederien, are you seeing the fortify bug w/0.4 when you have more than one attribute fortified at a time?




well, over 100 posts now eh?

i see the Forums loses track of the posts!! tis hard to find the whole 9 page thread as the form program often says that there are 5 pages!

i *think* that this might be due to how the name of the thread often changed, during its growth!

yes i am glad to read about how the WAKIMS GAME IMPROVEMents works with leveling. I wonder what else works or not works.
I will begin my game soon.

freestone


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Sederien
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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2872708 - 07/31/04 05:28 PM

Quote:

sederien, are you seeing the fortify bug w/0.4 when you have more than one attribute fortified at a time?




Hmm... I actually haven't had a chance to test the newest version yet, so I can't confirm the bug. I will within a day or two, but at the moment I'm working on a few other projects at once.

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Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Sederien]
      #2873096 - 07/31/04 07:33 PM

i'm switching back to the miral/balor version, methinks -- i can live w/clicking out of menus each time. i'll still be eagerly awaiting madd version .5 w/fingers crossed for a fully bugfree game! and maybe i'll try chopping that menumode == 1 return out of the m/b/s version.

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Sederien
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Balancing Skills/Attributes [Re: Sederien]
      #2873262 - 07/31/04 08:22 PM

Actually, I take this one back... I'm going to post a new thread.

[WIP] A Simple Leveling Mod Balancing Act (Co-Thread)

Go there to see my Attribute/Skill suggestions and stay here for updates on the mod, etc. I'll be going back and forth between both and helping to sort out any mess that comes about from concurrent threads, but this one will soon become unmanageable otherwise. (Besides, the topics are now different enough to work on balancing there and new versions here).

--------------------
Currently working on:
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Edited by Sederien (07/31/04 08:56 PM)

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working version of miral007's rewrite of balor's .esp [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
      #2873630 - 07/31/04 09:56 PM

for anyone who doesn't mind opening up the construction set, i've changed a piece of miral007's script (available from a link in one of the first posts to this thread) and it's working (knock on wood). so far (over an hour of gameplay), it is working just fine in menus (which was the problem reported w/this leveller plugin, that your stats didn't when your armorer, alchemy, speech, etc, skills increased 3x).

assuming it's still up (miral007?) you can download miral's "levelling".esp from a link in one of his early posts. following the comment madd_muggsy made in his first post to this thread (on 7/14), tonight i went into the bal_antimunchkin script and deleted these three lines:

Quote:


if ( MenuMode == 1 )
return
endif





these are lines 43-45 of the script (and the middle line, "return", is indented, but i can't post an indent here). i've played, levelled up, gained attribute points while using in-menu skills, and the fortify bug is nowhere to be seen (knocking on more wood), and i haven't seen a difference in fps. while this .esp may not work for the expanded project (balancing, different calculation of hit-points, changing governing skills, etc), so far it is working for just playing the game.

so -- d/l miral's "levelling," open it in cs, open the script bal_antimunchkin (the long one), delete lines 43-45, save, clean, use, play.

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Re: Balancing Skills/Attributes [Re: Sederien]
      #2874142 - 08/01/04 12:32 AM

There is one point I think is essential to make in regards to the final form of this mod.

With most mods, you either like them or you don't; you either load them or you don't. Aside from bugs, there's no real reason to open them in the CS.

However, when you have a mod that fiddles with the rules themselves, you are going to have a lot of disagreement with your selections, no matter what they are.

I feel quite safe in saying that Morrowind wouldn't be half as popular as it is if Bethesda hadn't included the editor. The greatest challenge for any manufacturer is to make a product that appeals to the widest possible audience, in order to make the most amount of money.

With a game editor, gamers can fine tune a game to their individual preferences. Some want easy games, some want hard. Some want more hp, some want less magic, some want bigger opponents, and others want better graphics. With an editor, we can make it what WE want.

The point of all this is that it's best to make the mod as flexible as possible. The greater the ability of the gamer to make it her/his own, the greater the appeal. I have often heard gamers lament on these forums that they loved _______ mod, but don't use it because it includes changes they don't want.

I'm averse to tinkering overmuch with the rules, and prefer keeping things as simple as possible. IME, when gamers start going crazy overhauling the game rules, they often wind up with something unbalanced, unrealistic, and unenjoyable, when they even finish at all. I think it's best to focus on just what the problem is, and fixing that. Leave all other considerations for another project, or as optional addons. Consider that at the beginning of this thread, all you wanted was a very simple mod that did x.

The new thread you started on abilities is very well thought out and presented. However... () imo it will be impossible to come to any kind of concensus. To me, it's like asking congress whether the speed limit should be changed from 65 to 67. It will involve a great deal of debate over an issue that, in the end, is not all that important.

This is how I see the final product:

  • gain 1 ability point every 3 associated skill rankups
  • lose 1 ability point every 3 associated skill rankdowns (jail)
  • +1 to three abilities at levelup, regardless of skill usage

    This is what you requested and I think it's fine just the way it is. The fancier you try to get, the better your chance of causing longterm imbalance. What may seem cool now, may be realized to be unbalanced thirty or forty levels down the road. I've seen many a gamer get heady with rule change proposals (myself included, but don't tell anyone! )

    IMHO, the discussion of which skill should go with which ability, whether each skill should be tied to multiple abilities, whether skills/abilities should cap at 100 distracts from the real goal of the mod.

    Don't include multiple esp's (unless a lot of scripting is involved, and I don't see how that can be). Just make a mod with the core elements, and then point out areas in the readme how gamers can change this or that to custom fit it.

    Also, the simpler it is, the less chance of mod conflict.

    Lastly, I think Madd, or whoever makes the final version, should include in the readme where to find all the variables that the mod changes. This is what will allow gamers to make it their own. This is crucial for any mod that changes rules.

    For example, I like the idea of this mod, but think that gain should be much slower than every three ranks. IMO, every five is best. Knowing right where to change this will let me enjoy this in my way, while others can enjoy it in theirs. If I can't find in the readme how to change it from 3 to 5, then I likely won't use it.

    As an aside, I like the ability of having mana increase each level, as hp and fatigue do. I would like to know how to do that, so I can include it in my game, but don't think it should be a part of this, as this is purely a levelling mod.

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    Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: Sederien]
          #2874480 - 08/01/04 03:25 AM

    Okay,

    Issue 1: the fortify skill bug
    Skills not being checked when fortified.
    Fortifying skills causes you to not be able to advance the stat correctly.
    Should be dead with the release of .4

    Issue 2: the fortify stat bug
    Skills being increased while being fortified do odd things:
    First thing it does is look like it's the natural unfortified skill.
    When removeing the fortification looks damaged.
    It can be restored to the level at which it was fortified + 1.
    And then you can fortify it again.

    Confirmed and I believe I know why.

    The SetSTAT function set's the natural skill and the fortified skill to the same thing. Disregarding the fortification affects, kinda.
    The ModSTAT function increases the natural skill, and the fortified skill by the same amount. Meaning that it keeps track of and accounts for the fortification affects.

    In the Standard version this is a not a long term issue, just change all the SetSTAT commands to ModSTAT. Since it's running with the standard limits, it's all good after that.

    In the No Caps version, this is gonna become alot more complicated. Mod can't breach the 100 stat barrier, and that's why this version exists. But Set is gonna monkey around with the fortified stats. This might require some creative scripting to work through.

    Hope this helps sorting all this out.

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    Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: MysticResearcher]
          #2874549 - 08/01/04 04:12 AM

    You all:
    Me:

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    Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: MysticResearcher]
          #2874554 - 08/01/04 04:18 AM

    Quote:


    Issue 2: the fortify stat bug
    Skills being increased while being fortified do odd things:
    First thing it does is look like it's the natural unfortified skill.
    When removeing the fortification looks damaged.
    It can be restored to the level at which it was fortified + 1.
    And then you can fortify it again.






    I was just about to report this as I spotted it when using the Ring of Mentor near the beginning of a new game. Was using the Standard version as I am unsure about "no caps" in a game (but then as someone else said we all have different feelings on what a mod should and shouldn't do ). Guess this means once it is fixed I will have to reload my previous save ... doh!

    Edit: Also I am getting the sneaking suspicion that I did not see a level increase from a skillbook. I read two longsword books within one game hour of each other and even though I got two longsword increase message I think I only got one increase. I'll check this later in Jobasha's with the Dance in Fire series ... series skillbook overload

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    Edited by GarethS (08/01/04 06:09 AM)

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    Sederien
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    Re: Balancing Skills/Attributes [Re: ]
          #2874643 - 08/01/04 05:01 AM

    In response to Aeroldoth:

    Well said.

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    Re: On another note... [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2874709 - 08/01/04 05:35 AM

    Mugsy,

    About the Health, Magicka, and Fatigue stats:
    Magicka and Fatigue aren't leveled up. You have to change thier governing stats to change them.
    Magicka is just Int.
    Fatigue has a number of them however.

    Health however in increased slightly when you level up.
    How much it increases is shown in the formula below:
    AdditionalHealth = fLevelUpHealthEndMult * Endurance.
    fLevelUpHealthEndMult is a game setting that defaults to 0.10.
    ( Silly me, I tested leveling to detemine it, wasting a coule hours )

    So now when you work on the autolevel sections of your script, you'll have the info.

    PS. I Still really like this mod.

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    Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: MysticResearcher]
          #2875085 - 08/01/04 10:00 AM

    Quote:


    The SetSTAT function set's the natural skill and the fortified skill to the same thing. Disregarding the fortification affects, kinda.
    The ModSTAT function increases the natural skill, and the fortified skill by the same amount. Meaning that it keeps track of and accounts for the fortification affects.





    Ok I am just having a look through the code (though I'm a mechincal engineer so software is the devil I think ). Anyway by ModSTAT and SetSTAT so you mean the section where it says (for example) SetStrength (i.e. substitute an Attribute for STAT in your SetSTAT)?

    Such as:
    Quote:

    Player->SetStrength Att




    Really asking so that I can get this sorted and carry on with my character (as well as "converting" my other characters). Also this makes Sleep or Suffer playable I feel.

    Two things left on my list really:
    1) I can't find that menu pause thing in the 0.4 Madd Leveller script
    2) Has anyone else noticed any issues with skillbooks like I described above?

    Cheers
    GarethS

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    Sederien
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    Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: GarethS]
          #2875109 - 08/01/04 10:17 AM

    Quote:

    Also this makes Sleep or Suffer playable I feel.




    I would like to echo this and note that both Sleep or Suffer and Falling Down now work exceptionally well (as far as gameplay is concerned) with the Madd_Leveler installed.

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    Re: magicka, and...the unkillable fortify bug? [Re: GarethS]
          #2875568 - 08/01/04 01:37 PM

    GarethS,

    the menu pause is not in madd_leveler, but in the levelling.esp posted by miral007, which was the plugin used before. see 7/14/04 post by miral007 for the link to the file.

    i gather that once the fortify bugs in madd_leveler are eliminated, it will be more stable or robust, and more amenable to tweaking/customizing, as well as much, much smaller and more elegantly coded -- but i'm just drawing that conclusion from the opinions of the real programmer types who've been talking about and working away at this for close to a month now!

    as noted above, miral did a quick and dirty jury-rig of someone else's old .esp, and w/the deletion of the menu-pause i'm continuing to find that it works just fine.

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    Forify bug is in my sights! [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
          #2875623 - 08/01/04 01:59 PM

    <- for mystic researcher for confirming what I also observed. 0.4 works for skills, but not for stats, and it is because of the setstat function for the no caps thing.

    So how should we fix this?

    I have two ways:

    1) (the nicest) Remove fortification/drain, set stat, restore fortification/drain. BUT! I can't possibly do this, given all the different things that can give you drain/fortification and their varying time limits. I can't find enough information obtainable through scripting to do this properly. (Ahh, if only we had that OO interface... )

    2) (not as nice, but it'll have to do - unless someone has a better idea) Use modStat until the player hits 100 points, then test for fortify/drain and tell him to get rid of it before applying setStat. This will be transparent for everyone using the "Standard" version (which is probably most of you). We can call it "the price you must pay for being an uber-character", and put some backstory about how the gods don't like characters with >100 in their stats or something.

    But, like I said, if someone has a better idea than #2, or a way I could get all the info to implement #1, let's hear it.


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    Re: Forify bug is in my sights! [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2875639 - 08/01/04 02:07 PM

    So does this mean if I am using the standard version and I change setstrength to modstrength it should correct the fortify stat issue?

    I'm only using setstrength as an example here mind.

    Cheers
    Gareth "whose mind is blowing due to software" S

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    Re: Forify bug is in my sights! [Re: GarethS]
          #2875681 - 08/01/04 02:23 PM

    Quote:

    So does this mean if I am using the standard version and I change setstrength to modstrength it should correct the fortify stat issue?




    Yes, that's correct. Please let me know ASAP if this is not the case. The SetStat and ModStat are the only readily apparent differences between my script and Balor's. And his seems to work for this.

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    Squash dat bug! [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2875761 - 08/01/04 02:57 PM

    New version of Madd_Leveler here:

    http://www.euro-rpg.com/plugins/uploads/ID4876-2-26-Madd+Leveler+v0.5-20040801.zip

    v0.5
    -- Fixed the fortify stat bug -- using option #2 as outlined in my post above.

    The one in my sig should be updated soon.


    As always, let me know about any bugs you find.

    Cheers!

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    Re: Balancing Skills/Attributes [Re: ]
          #2875854 - 08/01/04 03:28 PM

    Quote:

    There is one point I think is essential to make in regards to the final form of this mod.

    With most mods, you either like them or you don't; you either load them or you don't. Aside from bugs, there's no real reason to open them in the CS.

    However, when you have a mod that fiddles with the rules themselves, you are going to have a lot of disagreement with your selections, no matter what they are.
    ...
    Lastly, I think Madd, or whoever makes the final version, should include in the readme where to find all the variables that the mod changes. This is what will allow gamers to make it their own. This is crucial for any mod that changes rules.
    ...
    As an aside, I like the ability of having mana increase each level, as hp and fatigue do. I would like to know how to do that, so I can include it in my game, but don't think it should be a part of this, as this is purely a levelling mod.




    I agree totally with this, and given the number of varying opinions, I don't think I'll be able to make one mod that makes all the changes everyone wants.

    But what I can and will do is make an easy to alter script with good documentation in the readme (next version?) that will allow people with little to no scripting experience to make the changes that they want themselves. This will include things like skill/stat capping, auto-leveling (w/ and w/out the menu), points/skill to increase stats, stats that increase with each skill (& amounts), health/mana/fatigue per level as well as per stat, etc. Also, I plan to include some "why"s for each... Like why would you want to cap skills at 99? Etc.

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    GarethS
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    Re: Forify bug is in my sights! [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2876065 - 08/01/04 04:33 PM

    Quote:

    Yes, that's correct. Please let me know ASAP if this is not the case. The SetStat and ModStat are the only readily apparent differences between my script and Balor's. And his seems to work for this.




    Or I could just wait the short time until 0.5 is produced

    Ooops been playing another character. I'll give it a try now as I am about 5 minutes from getting Mentor's ring again.

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    VenomByte
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    Re: Forify bug is in my sights! [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2876111 - 08/01/04 04:45 PM

    Quote:

    <- for mystic researcher for confirming what I also observed. 0.4 works for skills, but not for stats, and it is because of the setstat function for the no caps thing.

    So how should we fix this?

    I have two ways:

    1) (the nicest) Remove fortification/drain, set stat, restore fortification/drain. BUT! I can't possibly do this, given all the different things that can give you drain/fortification and their varying time limits. I can't find enough information obtainable through scripting to do this properly. (Ahh, if only we had that OO interface... )

    2) (not as nice, but it'll have to do - unless someone has a better idea) Use modStat until the player hits 100 points, then test for fortify/drain and tell him to get rid of it before applying setStat. This will be transparent for everyone using the "Standard" version (which is probably most of you). We can call it "the price you must pay for being an uber-character", and put some backstory about how the gods don't like characters with >100 in their stats or something.

    But, like I said, if someone has a better idea than #2, or a way I could get all the info to implement #1, let's hear it.






    An interesting dilema...

    So if I follow correctly, the problem is that you can't set the attribute to the required 'over 100' value and still retain the correct drain/fortify bonuses.

    My suggestion is this: Don't ever set attribute to over 100, but always use modstat for increases instead. To get around the problem of modstat not working when your base strength value is 100, you could apply further advances as fortifications.
    e.g, strength 110 might be strength 60 + fortify strength 50. that way you'll still be able to use modstat correctly. When it eventually reaches 100 again, replace strength 100 and fortify strength 50 with strength 50 and fortify strength 100. This way you'll never cap out on strength. The upper limit, I guess, will be whatever fortify strength spell you decide to put in the mod.

    I suspect there are plenty of fortify/drain/damage issues that could screw this idea up, but since you can easily keep an independant record of the *correct* values of a player's attributes you could have a script check the current values every so many seconds and make readjustments accordingly. Or at least, I think you could

    Any thoughts?

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    Re: Squash dat bug! [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2876169 - 08/01/04 04:59 PM

    Ok I have just checked to be sure the stat bug vanishes and it has done. Willpower increased quite happily but still showed it was "buffed" by Mentor's Ring, take off the ring and stat goes to normal with none of the red writing as before when the Mentor's Ring buff became part of the set level in 0.4.

    Excellent. Next mission is to try and reproduce the error I thought I got with the skillbooks.

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    Sederien
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    Re: Squash dat bug! [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2876236 - 08/01/04 05:16 PM

    Quote:

    New version of Madd_Leveler here: ... The one in my sig should be updated soon.




    It has been updated. And a quick/dirty website with details is in the works... Sometime this week... I promise. ^^

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    Re: Balancing Skills/Attributes [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2876310 - 08/01/04 05:46 PM

    Quote:


    But what I can and will do is make an easy to alter script with good documentation in the readme (next version?) that will allow people with little to no scripting experience to make the changes that they want themselves. This will include things like skill/stat capping, auto-leveling (w/ and w/out the menu), points/skill to increase stats, stats that increase with each skill (& amounts), health/mana/fatigue per level as well as per stat, etc. Also, I plan to include some "why"s for each... Like why would you want to cap skills at 99? Etc.





    Absolutely. This is what I mean. Knowing what to change, where, to get what results, is how this mod is best presented.

    In essence you make a batch of ice cream, and we get to pick the flavor.

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    MysticResearcher
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    Re: Forify bug is in my sights! [Re: VenomByte]
          #2876762 - 08/01/04 08:00 PM

    Madd-Mugsy:
    Cool my scripting skills aren't as rusty as I thought they were.

    GarethS:
    I can go ahead and try to reproduce the bug in about 7 hours. (I only have access to my game machine then. )

    VenomByte:
    Hmmm. Your idea might work in a very very good way.

    We could use the modstat function for say 25 stat ups, then apply a 25 point constant ability to fortify the stat, and mod the stat down 25.
    And since we don't even have to keep track of the base stat, just our adjustments fortify/drain/damage shouldn't become an issue.

    (Of course we could just lock the stat in at 99, and apply the fortifications from them on. I just have no clue how having 900 fortify strength 1 point affects will affect the game speed/fps.)

    I don't think dispell undoes the abilities that are applied for the race at character creation (Anyone get rid of the stunted magicka effect yet?) so abilites that fortify the stat could be safe as well. I can check into this tonight too if it's desired.



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    Madd_Mugsy
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    Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: MysticResearcher]
          #2877008 - 08/01/04 09:41 PM

    On the books -- I haven't seen this error myself, but I haven't had a chance to check it since like version .1. Will check tonight or tomorrow.

    Quote:


    VenomByte:
    Hmmm. Your idea might work in a very very good way.

    We could use the modstat function for say 25 stat ups, then apply a 25 point constant ability to fortify the stat, and mod the stat down 25.
    And since we don't even have to keep track of the base stat, just our adjustments fortify/drain/damage shouldn't become an issue.

    (Of course we could just lock the stat in at 99, and apply the fortifications from them on. I just have no clue how having 900 fortify strength 1 point affects will affect the game speed/fps.)

    I don't think dispell undoes the abilities that are applied for the race at character creation (Anyone get rid of the stunted magicka effect yet?) so abilites that fortify the stat could be safe as well. I can check into this tonight too if it's desired.






    <- venombyte
    <- mystic researcher

    I've been pondering this idea in my head for the last few hours since I read venom byte's post.

    Researcher, you have the right idea here. The simplest way is to lock stats at 100 and apply 1 point fortifications after that. But can they be dispelled? Will they affect the FPS? I can start testing the FPS thing tonight/tomorrow, but I'm not sure about dispelling the effects.

    EDIT:
    [deleted]

    Best bet, from what I can tell, is at 100, we modStat -99 down to 1 and AddSpell a fortify ability 100. Then we could keep using modStat. 25 or a lower number would work too, but would probably hit the FPS more than a larger number. Hmmm... what happens if we modStat down to 0?

    Another cool way would be if we could modify the magnitude of spells/abilities on the fly through scripting...

    EDIT: Ok... That didn't work. I added 100 via fortified attribute, subtracted 99 from the stat, and it was fine. I added another point via modStat and it went back to before the fortify (-100).

    Will try one point at a time....

    EDIT:

    That didn't work either. Apparently, abilities don't stack. So I can't keep AddSpell-ing the same ability over and over.

    Any other ideas?

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    Edited by Madd_Mugsy (08/02/04 12:36 AM)

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2877749 - 08/02/04 01:05 AM

    On the Ability Fortification Idea:

    That's right, Multiple affects that have the same name don't stack.
    And I don't know of any way to modify spell affects on the fly.

    However as long as the abilities have different names I think they should stack.

    So my first thought was do it in binary:
    A fort stat 1 ability, a fort 2 stat ability, a fort 4 stat ability, a fort stat 8 ability........
    And all of them with slightly different names.

    That's 5 abilities that will take us up to 15 over 99? 100? Something like that.

    I think the scripting on this is gonna be pretty tricky, and I don't know what would happen with the levelup menu. But I think this should allow quite a bit of leveling above the usual ceiling.

    Still can't test for a while though, so realize this is all speculation.

    PS
    to Mad_Mugsy for getting the bugs squashed so quickly.

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2877782 - 08/02/04 01:16 AM

    don't know if this is helpful -- but the dodge mod that i use has a bunch of different sanctuary bonusses that it categorizes as abilities. so when your unarmored goes from 24 to 25, the script removes the old ability (e.g., dodge/sanctuary bonus of 5 points) and applies the new abilitiy (e.g., d/s bonus of 7 points). all the abilities have different IDs but the same name in the game. here 'tis:

    http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles/Dodge1.2-WD-Enhanced_(Tribunal)_3-18-03.zip

    i'm gonna d/l and use madd_leveler 0.5 here in a sec -- glad to see someone who had the same problem with mentor's that i did reports all is well! oh, and hope your b.c. day was good. how sweet that someone has made a holiday to honor that timeless comic strip.

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
          #2877993 - 08/02/04 03:02 AM

    Quote:

    how sweet that someone has made a holiday to honor that timeless comic strip.


    Ha! I'm sure that's exactly what the premier at the time had in mind!

    Okay, so there is definitely going to be a 0.6 on the horizon. Since no one has been reporting bugs with the no caps version, i started using it. And guess what? I found a bug A FORTIFY bug!!!

    But it's now dead. It doesn't occur until your skills are over the max. I'll probably release a new version tomorrow, unless enough people want this fix right away. I'd rather do some more testing first though.

    Adding and removing abilities would probably work, but i'm not one for adding umpteen abilities for every possible stat/value combination. It's ugly, bug prone (due to the repetitiveness) and bloats the script (also more bug potential there). It's a valid last resort, but I'd prefer to just stick with what's in version 0.5, unless we can figure out something more "elegant". I'll dig around a bit more...

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2878049 - 08/02/04 03:26 AM

    When you release the new version, start a new thread. I think this one has been outlived already

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: MysticResearcher]
          #2878125 - 08/02/04 03:59 AM

    Yeah, I'm aware spells don't stack which is why I suggested a number of different spells differing in magnitude by 50 (a 50, 100, 150, 200 etc). The binary idea did cross my mind, but I thought it'd probably require some really ugly code and quite a few spells.

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: VenomByte]
          #2878232 - 08/02/04 04:44 AM

    Yeah, finally I can test!

    GarethS, I was unable to duplicate the issue of the skill books not increasing skills. And I have no clue why it would do that either.

    I also verified that the Fortify Abilities could not be dispelled. The other side of that is that they are considered "Natural" so when the combo hits 100, no more using the mod stat function.

    However normal spell affects can be used with the mod stat to boost the stat over 100. So we could mod the stat to 0 and then keep checking to make sure a fort spell was active on the character. Wow getting this bad boy stable for stats over 100 isn't easy is it.

    As for doing it similar to binary, it'll look REALLY ugly, but keep bloat and effect count down. Doing it at all is probably gonna be ugly period though, so I can totally understand you Madd_Mugsy when you want to save it as a last resort.

    Well MM, if you find a more elegant solution let me know. I'd love to see a better way to do this.

    Night All.

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: MysticResearcher]
          #2878375 - 08/02/04 06:02 AM

    An alternative to using a fortify attribute ability, is to have the script cast a fortify attribute spell on the player with duration 999999, or somethign like that. That way it will not count as natural.

    Check out Marc's vampire stat cap fix to see an example of this in action.

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: VenomByte]
          #2879024 - 08/02/04 12:50 PM

    This is the first thing I actually thought of, but I didn't think it was possible to actually have a duration that couldn't expire... People can play morrowind for a pretty long time. Plus how do you stop it from being dispelled?

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879053 - 08/02/04 01:00 PM

    Far be it form me to approach actual scripting in this game, but perhaps another angle might help.

    Why prevent it from being dispelled? Why not trigger the boost to recast whenever a dispell is cast? (Even if it's ever cast twice, I do not believe the boosts stack).

    Just a thought...

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    Re: Fortify Stats After 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879228 - 08/02/04 01:53 PM

    You can have a duration of 99999999, which = just over three years of playing without pausing for food, water or sleep

    I think Sederien's idea should work. Have a script check to see if the 'dispel' effect is on the player, and if so, recast.

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    Fortify just won't die [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879347 - 08/02/04 02:32 PM

    Well I loaded my game when I got home and found that the point of Willpower I gained last night had vanished (though my Willpower based skills were still at a total of +3 levels). Not too bad a problem I first thought as Willpower was still showing in the light yellow "buffed" colour ... take off Mentor's ring, drops from 60 to 50 ... fine except that the 50 was in red showing a loss of attribute ... argh!!!

    Thought it might have been the cause of Sleep or Suffer though the ring that comes with showed only been awake three hours ... again nope as even 12 hours sleep did not clear it

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: GarethS]
          #2879530 - 08/02/04 03:24 PM

    I think there is yet another problem with using several fortify stat "abilities" to get around the 100 limit: drain attribute. If you have a stat that is permanently over 100, you cannot resotre it if it gets drained, I believe.

    Perhaps a better solution, if a bit clunkier, is to grant the player powers (the every 24 hrs kind) that fortify their stat above 100.

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: GarethS]
          #2879724 - 08/02/04 04:21 PM

    Was this 0.4 or 0.5?

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: ]
          #2879798 - 08/02/04 04:41 PM

    Quote:

    Perhaps a better solution, if a bit clunkier, is to grant the player powers (the every 24 hrs kind) that fortify their stat above 100.




    ah -- then duration only needs to be 24 hrs. right? rather than "9999....." the player can be told that they have to spend a daily period in meditation/contemplation/prayer/concentration to focus and call upon their extraordinary abilities.

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: GarethS]
          #2879802 - 08/02/04 04:42 PM

    Gareth, you seem to be having more than your fair share of bugs here.

    TBH, I've not seen any of the book bugs - just tested on like 100 books - or the vanishing stats bug. Here's a possible solution:

    1) Make sure you have the latest (0.5) installed.
    2) Remove all fortifications and drains
    3) Type in these commands in order in the console:

    StopScript, "Madd_Leveler"
    Set mlRunOnce To 0
    StartScript, "Madd_Leveler"

    This will completely reset the script, and should hopefully fix your problems.

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: ]
          #2879812 - 08/02/04 04:44 PM

    I don't believe that a drain attribute spell targets other spells. It should just drain the base stat, in which case it should work just fine with drain spells. The biggest problem right now is getting the mod to accurately keep track of that base stat.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong of course...

    (Oh, if only Morrowind was PHP based. )

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    Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879824 - 08/02/04 04:47 PM

    Ok so I've been testing out the auto-leveling / leveless stuff and I've got some bad news...

    1) Auto-leveling w/level up menu sometimes causes a CTD when leveling.
    2) Auto-leveling w/out level up menu (using player->setlevel) puts you at level zero permenantly.

    Workarounds, anyone?


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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: Sederien]
          #2879850 - 08/02/04 04:52 PM

    Quote:

    I don't believe that a drain attribute spell targets other spells. It should just drain the base stat, in which case it should work just fine with drain spells. The biggest problem right now is getting the mod to accurately keep track of that base stat.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong of course...

    (Oh, if only Morrowind was PHP based. )




    I disagree

    Keeping track of the base stat is the easy part. Heck the script is doing it right now. We'd just need to tweak that part a bit for the fortifying spells.

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: alexandrian_librarian]
          #2879861 - 08/02/04 04:54 PM

    Quote:

    Quote:

    Perhaps a better solution, if a bit clunkier, is to grant the player powers (the every 24 hrs kind) that fortify their stat above 100.




    ah -- then duration only needs to be 24 hrs. right? rather than "9999....." the player can be told that they have to spend a daily period in meditation/contemplation/prayer/concentration to focus and call upon their extraordinary abilities.




    This is just as hokey as the way it is right now This would be fine for sleep or suffer users, but I for one don't use that mod. Heck my char is awake for so long, he should be seeing hallucinations. I only sleep for level up and if I'm too damaged to heal myself.

    EDIT: But we could track the days and do it without resting.... Hmmmm....

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    Edited by Madd_Mugsy (08/02/04 04:56 PM)

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879923 - 08/02/04 05:09 PM

    Quote:

    Quote:

    I don't believe that a drain attribute spell targets other spells. It should just drain the base stat, in which case it should work just fine with drain spells. The biggest problem right now is getting the mod to accurately keep track of that base stat.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong of course...

    (Oh, if only Morrowind was PHP based. )




    I disagree

    Keeping track of the base stat is the easy part. Heck the script is doing it right now. We'd just need to tweak that part a bit for the fortifying spells.




    Aye, what I trying to say. (Proving yet again that I am not destined to become a tech writer.)

    Anyway, as to the auto-leveling. Well, I was going to suggest Sleep or Suffer.

    Now, I looked at the script and was curious about one thing... The enableLevelMenu command. Is that safe to run without checking to see if a player is currently in another menu?

    Possibly something along the lines of:

    Code:

    WARNING! NOT REAL CODE! DING DING DING!

    if (MenuEnabled == 1)
    message "Sleep to level up!"
    Return
    else
    enableLevelMenu
    endif

    END FAKE CODE!



    (I'm quite sure I didn't script a single word right in that code, but it's more of a general idea thing.)

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879956 - 08/02/04 05:19 PM

    I like the 999999... duration idea. It's easier to code than the 24 hr one, because I'd need to put a day check in the latter. And recast all the spells every day.

    Regular spells stack right? Just not abilties? (I never use much magic - can you tell?) If so, I could just have one point fortify spells and cast them the appropriate number of times.

    BUT, how many spells can be cast in one frame without crashing? (To restore after a dispel) Hmmm...

    I guess this goes back to needing a large number of spells. But this is still less complicated than adding and removing ability combinations.

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2879959 - 08/02/04 05:19 PM

    Quote:

    Ok so I've been testing out the auto-leveling / leveless stuff and I've got some bad news...

    1) Auto-leveling w/level up menu sometimes causes a CTD when leveling.
    2) Auto-leveling w/out level up menu (using player->setlevel) puts you at level zero permenantly.



    Workarounds, anyone?





    what?!!

    your the one who makes the mod! another bug?

    lets see if i read this right!
    ....if you only set your level in the console, you will never level.
    ....if you level "regularly", like when some stats increase and you sleep for a day and then get the level-up screen, sometimes the game crashes!

    probably some code still conflicting with the original code of the program.

    what is me to do?
    still go ahead and use version .5?
    or

    wait till later, or even just go ahead and level up the "NORMAL" way
    ala the morrowind normal-engine, and then wait till version .6 or .7 or.8 comes out and then use the console to disable/enable it!


    I still suspect the intertwinning of the bethsoft gamescripts are *VERY* tendril-like, very "intricate" if the whole game engine is any indication!

    like:

    ---from what i read, the snow in bloodmoon affects your fps, even if you only have BM installed and never ever yet been off of vandervall!!
    i read the Engine calculates, when you are in, say, Sedya, calculates the inside of the builsings and even the water table under your feet!!

    I wish you Luck and Fortitude, Madd!

    here are a couple, or three, of "enlightenment potions"
    for you to take, just as you begin to really get into de-bugging this!




    freestone

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    Re: Fortify just won't die [Re: Sederien]
          #2879968 - 08/02/04 05:22 PM

    Yes, you can run the enablelevelmenu while looking at other menus. I've done it from console lots.

    Here's a sample of one of my CTDs: I fall out of a tree. I get hurt and my acrobatics goes up. Up pops level menu. Crash goes game. Very weird. It only happened sometimes.

    I did some more testing with the leveless system and got a CTD with that too. Maybe I've got some other buggy mod installed? I've got over 130 installed so far.

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: ]
          #2879995 - 08/02/04 05:28 PM

    Quote:


    lets see if i read this right!
    ....if you only set your level in the console, you will never level.
    ....if you level "regularly", like when some stats increase and you sleep for a day and then get the level-up screen, sometimes the game crashes!






    Not quite.

    The regular leveling where you sleep for a day or whatever works fine. This is just when I set use the auto-leveling system that I built into the mod. It doesn't require any resting. The player->setlevel function doesn't seem to be affecting the level # of the character, even after a reload, level = 0. The problem I think is that I set iLevelupTotal= 30000 and it's not reflecting in the level number.

    I'm not 100% sure anymore that the CTDs are related to my mod. I just had one where I just started to talk to a guard.


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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: ]
          #2880000 - 08/02/04 05:29 PM

    Quote:



    here are a couple, or three, of "enlightenment potions"
    for you to take, just as you begin to really get into de-bugging this!




    freestone





    maybe seven of em......



    freestone

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880004 - 08/02/04 05:31 PM

    Just noticed an error with Month Bugfix when the game was loading. I'll try removing that mod and see if I get any more CTDs.

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880010 - 08/02/04 05:33 PM

    Ooo... Yeah. Don't use that one. I've had major problems with it.

    There's a better one though: Spuzzum's Year Patch v1

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: ]
          #2880031 - 08/02/04 05:42 PM

    setLevel doesn't accept variables, if I recall correctly.

    That's why Balor's original mod did not have level-downs

    The only way to do it would be to have a series of if/then statemenets

    Code:

    if (level==6)
    player->setLevel, 6
    endif
    if (level==7)
    player ->setlevel, 7
    endif



    And so on for about 100 levels, or however many you plan on doing...

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: VenomByte]
          #2880035 - 08/02/04 05:43 PM

    Quote:

    setLevel doesn't accept variables, if I recall correctly.

    That's why Balor's original mod did not have level-downs

    The only way to do it would be to have a series of if/then statemenets

    Code:

    if (level==6)
    player->setLevel, 6
    endif
    if (level==7)
    player ->setlevel, 7
    endif



    And so on for about 100 levels, or however many you plan on doing...




    Gaayy... So much for the leveless system...

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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880086 - 08/02/04 05:57 PM

    Quote:

    Just noticed an error with Month Bugfix when the game was loading. I'll try removing that mod and see if I get any more CTDs.




    Madd!

    the bugfix eh?

    There is a "supermod" called "the morrowind patch". over 1000 fixes. the readme tells how there are 11 months to morrowind, an error on bethsoft's part! *his* fix for it comes as part of the mod. but there is a small "bug" with this fix: that when you play your first game, save, then quit....then another day load up that game, an error messege comes up that says that the month is not found.
    the mod maker [?] says to ignore this messege, click it away, and it will never apper again, and the month is really fixed.

    then another person did make a mod called "month fix", the one that you refer to.

    my question is....Madd, i am using that Morrowind Patch mod. i get to the census office and as i get my final papers and the package and then leave, the effect appears telling me that your levleing mod is enabled. i then quit the game. next time i begin, that month error comes up and i click it away, never to see it again.

    so...
    what affect does *that* mod, the Patch mod, have on Leveling?
    nothing?
    or the error/crash like in "monthfix".

    that morrowind patch mod is now nearly a "Bible", it is the Only Mod to Have, if you use only one mod!!
    eeeeeeveryyyone is now using it!

    the maker promishes, in a few weeks or a month or two, to Realase the Next Version, of it, too!

    lets see if i can find it!

    Unofficial Morrowind Patch v1.2.1/v1.6.2
    by Thepal
    Readme

    i find nothing about a change in the leveling system.


    anyway.....i wonder if that Patch mod changes Leveling in any way?!

    freestone


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    Madd_Mugsy
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    Reged: 07/14/04
    Posts: 220
    Loc: Waiting for my XPS :D
    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: ]
          #2880100 - 08/02/04 06:01 PM

    I use that unofficial patch too. I guess I just never disable that old month bugfix mod after installing the patch mod.

    The patch mod does not have any effect whatsoever on this mod. It only looks at your level for DB assassination attempts.

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    If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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    Madd_Mugsy
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    Fortify stats > 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880107 - 08/02/04 06:03 PM

    About to test fortifying stats when over 100... Wish me luck...

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    If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880130 - 08/02/04 06:10 PM

    Quote:

    I use that unofficial patch too. I guess I just never disable that old month bugfix mod after installing the patch mod.

    The patch mod does not have any effect whatsoever on this mod. It only looks at your level for DB assassination attempts.




    yes Madd, maybe that has something to do with the problem: running TWO versions of the same mod, will cause Stuff To Happen!
    conflicts will occur, and all of that!

    hey....

    while waiting to see the thread "refresh" i went over to the tech section and i found this, maybe it could show some insifght into the leveling process, as this poor soul could never ever level up!
    ...............................................
    >>>>>>>>>>>>

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    Entsuropi
    Layman



    Reged: 08/01/04
    Posts: 2

    BUG : Game not levelling character
    #2877248 - 08/01/04 10:51 PM Edit Reply Quote



    I have been using a mage character, high elf. And yet it will not level him. I have had about 30 skill advancements, but the leveling meter remains paused at 9/10. Running latest patches, all expansions on PC.

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    03jgarland
    Curate



    Reged: 03/31/04
    Posts: 723
    Loc: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Re: BUG : Game not levelling character [Re: Entsuropi]
    #2877414 - 08/01/04 11:44 PM Edit Reply Quote



    Are you using any plug-ins other than the official ones?

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    Hey, all. I'm back from away for a cousin's wedding. Good food. Great fun. Even better bridesmaids.

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    DinkumThinkum
    Diviner



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    Loc: Luna Penal Colony
    Re: BUG : Game not levelling character [Re: Entsuropi]
    #2877554 - 08/02/04 12:16 AM Edit Reply Quote




    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I have been using a mage character, high elf. And yet it will not level him. I have had about 30 skill advancements, but the leveling meter remains paused at 9/10. Running latest patches, all expansions on PC.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Are the skill advancements all in major or minor skills?

    Miscellaneous skills don't count toward leveling up.

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    How to avoid the most common problem encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures

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    Entsuropi
    Layman



    Reged: 08/01/04
    Posts: 2

    Re: BUG : Game not levelling character [Re: DinkumThinkum]
    #2878984 - 08/02/04 12:30 PM Edit Reply Quote



    Ah, that was it. Heh. I kept on raising misc skills :P

    Thanks for the help.


    ===================================


    he apparently did not use any of the major/minor skills at all!
    you must, in the Engine, i guess, have to level up using the major/minor skills to get the 2x mult.
    the misc skills only are there to up the "x" to 3x...4x...5x.

    probably you know this well, but i pasted the thread here anyways!

    freestone

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    Madd_Mugsy
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    Reged: 07/14/04
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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: ]
          #2880155 - 08/02/04 06:16 PM

    Misc skills don't count? I'll have to double check this.

    I have acrobatics and athletics as misc skills, and I'm running and jumping around like a madman all the time to increase them, and I keep leveling up.

    --------------------
    If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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    Madd_Mugsy
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    Re: Fortify stats > 100 [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880187 - 08/02/04 06:26 PM

    snag... cast function doesn't work? I can't seem to cast ANY spell from script or console. Anyone know why this could be?

    --------------------
    If you hate working for those 5x multipliers (and would maybe like to uncap all your stats and skills), check out the Madd Leveler


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    VenomByte
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    Reged: 02/04/03
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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: Madd_Mugsy]
          #2880218 - 08/02/04 06:38 PM

    misc skills don't advance your level towards levelup, but they do coutn towards the multiplier.

    As far as I know, it's always been that way. Hence the crazy levelling of misc skills med/hev armor before levelling up

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    LichCraft 0.95 beta - discussion thread
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    Madd_Mugsy
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    Re: Auto-leveling bad news [Re: VenomByte]
          #2880261 - 08/02/04 06:55 PM

    Quote: