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Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together
      #1660617 - 07/31/03 06:45 AM

It has been brought up before that in Morrowind, Daedric and Dwemer ruins seem to be paired. Many theories have been put forward to explain this. I am here to introduce my own.

All of the theories I have so far heard suppose that the Dwemer citadels and Daedric Shrines coexisted at the same time. I think this is an assumption we can't afford to make. There is really no reason to believe that any of the paired structures coexisted. Two settlements that close to one another would have tended to blend together, sharing some structures and resources. Besides their proximity, there is no apparent link between the two sets of ruins.

I believe that the Dwemer came first to these sites and built their citadels. These settlements were dwarven territory even when they coexisted with the Chimer. After the Disapearence of the Dwarves the Dwemer were vilified. The Dwemer Ruins with their leftover centurians and spirits represented not only a monument to a hated enemy but a danger to the general population of Morrowind. Before the Tribunal's Apotheosis, I believe the Chimer erected the Daedric Shrines near known Dwemer sites as a way of warding off the Dwemer Evil. They may have used these sites as outposts similar to the Ghostgate between the Disapearence of the Dwarves and the time of the Tribunal.

While we often think of these moments as one and the same, it is important to remember that from the time of the Battle at Red Mountain to Sotha Sil divining the secrets of Kargenac's tools that allowed the Tribunal to Ascend many years had passed. The events only seem close together historically because they are recorded in Elven time. Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil could have lived hundreds of years between the two events and would have needed a way to deal with these very real issues before finding the secret to Immortality.

This is my theory to one of the more puzzling questions rased by Morrowind.

Thoughts?

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Enternall_fish
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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: ]
      #1660652 - 07/31/03 06:59 AM

Personally my theory is very much different from this one.

The chimer and Dwemer were in war because of several reasons one of these was religion, the Daedric Shrines resembled the religion of the Chimer, and i think the Dwemer created their strongholds there as a blow against the Chimer morall. As you pointed out there is no reason to beleave that these shrines worked together in any way, as their are no reall connections except locations near eachother.

I think the Dwemer conqeured the lands around the Shrines and builded their strongholds there to make it even harder for the Chimer to keep worshipping the Daedra, and making each shrine they wanted back a huge problem.

Your theory is pretty good but the reason why i don't think its likely is because of
Quote:

believe the Chimer erected the Daedric Shrines near known Dwemer sites as a way of warding off the Dwemer Evil.




After the Chimer/Dwemer war the Tribunal probably had already figured out that they wanted to become gods and lose the Daedra, ofcourse they were not gods yet, but i think they didn't really encourage the worshipping of Daedra anymore.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: ]
      #1660798 - 07/31/03 07:42 AM

Mad God,

I think that you have covered some good ground here. Your arguments are both reasoned and logical.

Nonetheless, athough the historical basis for your arguments could be assumed to be generally accepted, I would still prefer to see you cite some textual evidence for your points. For example, when you say;

Quote:

I believe that the Dwemer came first to these sites and built their citadels. These settlements were dwarven territory even when they coexisted with the Chimer.




I do not disagree with you, but you could explain why it is that you believe this.


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Myrdinn
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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Nigedo]
      #1661071 - 07/31/03 09:14 AM

The Shrine of Azura: It is of the same archit. style, same general region, and the worship of Azura is dated in antiquity (as was the worship of Daedra in general).

Assumption follows: The Shrine of Azura, Ald Sotha, etc were built in the long, long ago period of first Chimer settlement.

Dwemer war machine (no pun intended) started to push out... and built fortfications on the sites where the religiously-inclinded Chimer would want to retake...

Similarities of this type of thinking can be found in Britian and Germany; many towns started as Roman strategic garrisions that turned into settlements during ensuing decades and centuries.

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oxy
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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Myrdinn]
      #1661272 - 07/31/03 10:27 AM

I tend to think that the Daedric shrines would have come first. Case in point: the Daedric shrine inside the Ghostfence. I can't remember the name of it, though, but I'm sure someone here can find out.

So why would the Chimer take the risk of building a shrine inside the very heart of the Dwemer? They most likely wouldn't.

Most likely they built it first, and then the Dwemer most likely ran them off.

EDIT: Couple of smelling/gpammar mistakes

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Edited by oxy (07/31/03 10:30 AM)

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: ]
      #1661966 - 07/31/03 02:04 PM

Sorry it took so long for me to get back online. You all have some good points so I'll address them in the order in which they were rased.

Quote:

Enternal_fish said:
The chimer and Dwemer were in war because of several reasons one of these was religion, the Daedric Shrines resembled the religion of the Chimer, and i think the Dwemer created their strongholds there as a blow against the Chimer morall.




My counterpoint to this is simply that structures and setlements aren't usually built in wartime. In wartime, one generally occupies conquored enemy structures or temporary seige towers rather than construct a permanent settlement. This is my reason for believing both the Daedric Shrines and Dwemer Citadels were built in peacetime. If it was peacetime, disrupting Chimer Morrale makes little sence as a reason for the placement of structures.

Quote:

Enternal_fish said:
After the Chimer/Dwemer war the Tribunal probably had already figured out that they wanted to become gods and lose the Daedra, ofcourse they were not gods yet, but i think they didn't really encourage the worshipping of Daedra anymore.




The best response to this is time. The Tribunal had no idea how long it would take Sotha Sil to divine the mysteries of the Tools. In the meantime, they had to serve the common welfare. The Chimer in general if not the Tribunal in Particular still worshiped the Daedra. The Daedra are powerful and grant their power to those who seek it. Almalexia looked to the Shrine of the Dead for power which clearly ran contrary to her opposition to Ancestor Worship because she wanted power. Until Azura cursed them, I think it's safe to assume they weren't sure how the Daedra would react. Perhaps they would have been supportive (at least some of them). The Tribunal had no way of knowing the Daedra would be that opposed considering the Tribunal's Ideals and subsequesnt actions. (not to mention if they didn't kill nerevar, they hadn't decided not to worship Daedra yet for sure)

Quote:

Nigedo said:
Nonetheless, athough the historical basis for your arguments could be assumed to be generally accepted, I would still prefer to see you cite some textual evidence for your points. For example, when you say;

quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that the Dwemer came first to these sites and built their citadels. These settlements were dwarven territory even when they coexisted with the Chimer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not disagree with you, but you could explain why it is that you believe this.




My belief that the Dwemer came first is largely based on process of elimination. If my other premeses are true, then one race or the other would have had to build their sites first. Since I can see no motivation for the godless (atheistic) Dwemer to build near Chimer holy sites, and since most dwemer sites exist near natural geothermal energy sources, it seems logical to assume that it was the dwemer who developed the territory first. If the Chimer had moved in and built temples right outside dwemer settlements, I think they might have opposed this and if so there would have been war before the Numidian incident. If they had not opposed the building of temples, there would be evidence of interconection between the sites.

Quote:

Myrdinn said:
The Shrine of Azura: It is of the same archit. style, same general region, and the worship of Azura is dated in antiquity (as was the worship of Daedra in general).

Assumption follows: The Shrine of Azura, Ald Sotha, etc were built in the long, long ago period of first Chimer settlement.




I don't object to this idea. I did not say that all Daedric ruins result from this process. My theory only applies to those sites which appear paired with a Dwemer ruin. The Shrine of Azura and Ald Sotha were both ancient sites and neither were paired with a Dwemer Ruin. These don't really apply to my theory at all.

Quote:

Myrdinn said:
Dwemer war machine (no pun intended) started to push out... and built fortfications on the sites where the religiously-inclinded Chimer would want to retake...

Similarities of this type of thinking can be found in Britian and Germany; many towns started as Roman strategic garrisions that turned into settlements during ensuing decades and centuries.




We seem to be agreeing on what happened and we're arguing about who did it. You and I seem to agree that the pairing is a result of a site on one side building up near a conquored site of the enemy. The reason I believe it is the Chimer who built around dwemer sites is because the Dwemer weren't around for decades and centuries to develop settlements out of their strategic garisons. The Chimer were.

Quote:

oxy said:
I tend to think that the Daedric shrines would have come first. Case in point: the Daedric shrine inside the Ghostfence. I can't remember the name of it, though, but I'm sure someone here can find out.

So why would the Chimer take the risk of building a shrine inside the very heart of the Dwemer? They most likely wouldn't.

Most likely they built it first, and then the Dwemer most likely ran them off.




This site is not obviusly paired with a particular dwemer site though it does seem paired with the dwemer sites of the Red Mountain regeon in general. There are two possible reasons for this coincidence. The first is that the Chimer built a shrine in the heart of Dwemer territory and were run off by the leftover dwemer constructs. Perhaps the site was originally intended to serve as a watchtower in the former heart of Dwemer territory to check to see if they were really gone. Perhaps the site was intended to expand until it equaled the dwemer sites but was interupted (possibly by the appearance of Dagoth Ur and the subsequent creation of the Ghostfence). The other posibility is that as you said this site may have been an ancient site the dwemer conquored on coming to the Vvardenfell regeon. I'm not sure which group came to Vvardenfell first, but if it was the Chimer, then your theory on this particular site may indeed have something to it.

These were all great comments from people who obviusly have a sound grasp of the topic. I look forward to hearing more thoughts on my theory and on the theories of others.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: ]
      #1662507 - 07/31/03 10:00 PM

Quote:

My counterpoint to this is simply that structures and setlements aren't usually built in wartime. In wartime, one generally occupies conquored enemy structures or temporary seige towers rather than construct a permanent settlement. This is my reason for believing both the Daedric Shrines and Dwemer Citadels were built in peacetime. If it was peacetime, disrupting Chimer Morrale makes little sence as a reason for the placement of structures.




Well there is no reason to beleave, as far as i know that the Chimer and Dwemer were in war since the day Velothi led them to Resdyan, pherhaps their was some peace before the war started and they builded the shrines there. Ofcourse it would be stupid to build the shrines in war time's.

Quote:

The best response to this is time. The Tribunal had no idea how long it would take Sotha Sil to divine the mysteries of the Tools. In the meantime, they had to serve the common welfare. The Chimer in general if not the Tribunal in Particular still worshiped the Daedra. The Daedra are powerful and grant their power to those who seek it. Almalexia looked to the Shrine of the Dead for power which clearly ran contrary to her opposition to Ancestor Worship because she wanted power. Until Azura cursed them, I think it's safe to assume they weren't sure how the Daedra would react. Perhaps they would have been supportive (at least some of them). The Tribunal had no way of knowing the Daedra would be that opposed considering the Tribunal's Ideals and subsequesnt actions. (not to mention if they didn't kill nerevar, they hadn't decided not to worship Daedra yet for sure)




If they didn't kill Nerevar then indeed they may have been corrupted by the tools later on, still i find this hard to beleave, the Tribunal with all their magick should have been able to cure him when he was dying of his wounds, even so. You have a point when you said that Almalexia used the Daedra for power, ofcourse letting the people adjust more slowly would give her more power with less resistance to everything.

Still i think its unlikely that the shrines were build after the Dwemer had dissapeared, what i find more likely is that as you said all Shrines were build in peace time, and just close together in order for help and support this would not explain why their are no common buldings and everythig, so i stay with my theory that the Daedric Shrines were build before the war, and the Dwemer builded their strongholds near them in order to prevent the Chimer from praying.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1663113 - 08/01/03 03:03 AM

What makes you think the Daedric shrines were built by the Chimer?

They have an alien architecture that is wholly dissimilar to any other in the game. The architectural styles of Dunmer and the Velothi towers look nothing like it.

That being said maybe the chimer had nothing to do with the Daedric shrines. Maybe the Daedra themselves erected the shrines near the ruins of the dwemer to emphasise the futility and danger of the Dwemeri atheistic beliefs.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Jonny_Evil]
      #1663125 - 08/01/03 03:09 AM

The Chimer were originally Altmer, but broke away from the worship of the Aedra to worship the Daedra instead - it is they who built the Daedric shrines - the architecture is meant to reflect Oblivion i believe (or as close as you can come to it on Mundus), which is why it is so different from traditional Velothi architecture

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Jonny_Evil]
      #1663126 - 08/01/03 03:09 AM

If they weren't made by the Chimer by who then? Nobody their worshipped the Daedra except them, besides its said in the game itself, and pherhaps in some books to, that the Daedric shrines may have been created by the Daedra Lords themselves.

Edit: Damn Phil beat me to saying this... Tobad



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Edited by Enternall_fish (08/01/03 03:10 AM)

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1663168 - 08/01/03 03:23 AM

Quote:

besides its said in the game itself, and pherhaps in some books to, that the Daedric shrines may have been created by the Daedra Lords themselves.




That was my point mate.

That the shrines weren't created by the chimer at all but were built by the daedra themselves. The chimer would naturally worship at these sites, if your god appeared before you and built a bloody great big shrine to him/herself you'd get to worshipping pretty damn quick.

If the daedra built the shrines it would also answer why some of them are near dwemer ruins, given the antagonism between the two some form of "Nyaaah, sucka! Who's the daddy now then!" sentiment from the daedra could only be expected when the dwemer vanished.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Jonny_Evil]
      #1663175 - 08/01/03 03:26 AM

I don't think the Daedra builded them competly, in the Boethiah qeust you have to build Boethiah a shrine or atleast the statue, besides why would they have stopped building shrines after the Tribunal took over, they probably helped building the shrine but needed help from the Chimer.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1663673 - 08/01/03 08:44 AM

Quote:


I don't object to this idea. I did not say that all Daedric ruins result from this process. My theory only applies to those sites which appear paired with a Dwemer ruin. The Shrine of Azura and Ald Sotha were both ancient sites and neither were paired with a Dwemer Ruin. These don't really apply to my theory at all.





True, of course, I made another assumption that is not neccessarily true:
I assumed all sites of similar construction were built at the same time.

This raises a question about the Dwemer settlements (in my mind): the Mournhold ruins of the Dwemer settlement there. Where they a newer settlement or older settlement than the other Dwemer strongholds? I ask this, as it is obviously a pre-Chimer establishment... and the differences in arch. (I *hate* spelling that word!!!) style might establish something of a time line of who built what when and where.
Especially if this is compared to the Chimer/Dunmer arch. styles of old Mournhold.
--I eliminate the Clockwork City due to my presumption that ol' Sil was continually remodeling during his habitation of the site.

Quote:


We seem to be agreeing on what happened and we're arguing about who did it. You and I seem to agree that the pairing is a result of a site on one side building up near a conquored site of the enemy. The reason I believe it is the Chimer who built around dwemer sites is because the Dwemer weren't around for decades and centuries to develop settlements out of their strategic garisons. The Chimer were.





Quite true, we *are* arguing over who did what to whom... not the process!
Actually, did not the Dwemer (and the Giants of the land) pre-exist the Chimer by several centuries?
Perhaps the 'ruins' are not Chimer ruins (as others have here stated previously) but ruins of the Giants? The scale of some of the ruin components *do* seem a bit odd to me.

-Omittng one of my points that was obviously flawed. Continue onwards, please.


Edited by Myrdinn (08/01/03 10:58 AM)

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Myrdinn]
      #1665399 - 08/01/03 07:56 PM

Again, I have to say that there are some good points coming out of this discussion, most of them from MadGod , but it is all speculation at present.

Where is the evidence to support anything that has been said here?

I accept that much of what you say is reasoned argument based on premises which may well be true. But I cannot accept them without an attempt by you to found them upon some evidence of some kind. So make an effort and dig out some information that supports your scholarly views.

Myrdinn, you could start with this one:-

Quote:

Actually, did not the Dwemer (and the Giants of the land) pre-exist the Chimer by several centuries?






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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Nigedo]
      #1665591 - 08/01/03 10:22 PM

Just thought of something, maybe were looking at this the wrong way.

What if the Dwemer had their strongholds build on several locations threwout Morrowind and then the Chimer came altough not in war with the Dwemer they didn't have really good relations with them either, and in order to make their point that they would not leave they builded shrine's to their gods near the Dwemer ruins ( instead of the other way around )

Also
Quote:


I don't object to this idea. I did not say that all Daedric ruins result from this process. My theory only applies to those sites which appear paired with a Dwemer ruin. The Shrine of Azura and Ald Sotha were both ancient sites and neither were paired with a Dwemer Ruin. These don't really apply to my theory at all.





This isn't true the Shrine of Azura has a dwemer ruin close to it, when you look at you paper map there is a Dwemer Ruin of the west cost of the Azura's coast peak. And near ald Sotha you can find Mzahnch, i'm not sure but i beleave thats a Dwemer Ruin to.


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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1671396 - 08/03/03 08:05 PM

It should be noted the references of some of the Dwemer ruins. One is referred to as a "village," and it is a typical Dwemer ruin. Another typical ruin is deemed a Free Hold.

I find it far more likely that the Dwemer built where the resources were. They cared less about the location of anything above ground than they did about that below it. The Dwemer were a people who needed to expand, just like the Chimer.

There is another possible reason why the Daedric ruins are close to Dwemer ruins, however.

When the Tribunal rose to power and banned Daedra worship, those who wished to found themselves perscuted. They needed safe locations to build. So they found locations that, at that time, were probably feared and rumored of being haunted and cursed: Dwemer ruins.

I mean, think about it: The Dwemer as an entire race vanish from the face of Nirn, and all that is left are these giant buildings, centurions, and unexplainable devices. The Dunmer of the time would have been fearful of these unexplainable things, possibly even fearing they might bring the Dwemer back. So Daedra worshippers built near them, using their reputation to hold off intruders.

Some Daedric ruins, such as the Shrine of Azura and Ald Daedroth, probably preceded the lesser ruins, built during the heyday of Daedra worship, and were used as a template.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1671425 - 08/03/03 08:16 PM

Quote:

I mean, think about it: The Dwemer as an entire race vanish from the face of Nirn, and all that is left are these giant buildings, centurions, and unexplainable devices. The Dunmer of the time would have been fearful of these unexplainable things, possibly even fearing they might bring the Dwemer back. So Daedra worshippers built near them, using their reputation to hold off intruders.




Nice idea but i don't think so, building Daedric Shrines would take lots of times and resources menpower and everything the Ashlanders simply didn't have in the time in that time, atleast not if they were hunted down like you said was the reason they builded it there.

Another thing have you noticed how many Daedric Ruines there are? In so many different locations it would take really large groups to build so many of those shrines, and the Ashlanders i beleave never had the numbers or resources to be able to build those shrines.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1671491 - 08/03/03 08:49 PM

I never said Ashlanders. I said Daedra worshippers. I doubt every member of the Great Houses immediately said, "They are the true gods!" when the Tribunal appeared. I imagine some families decided to build Daedric shrines to spite them.

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Re: Theory: Daedric and Dwemer Ruins Together [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1671507 - 08/03/03 08:56 PM

Still most family's in great Houses that were even slightly important knew not to betray their house, it would mean their death, and even if some did they were small in numbers and resources, and it would be impossible for them to build as many Daedric Shrines as there are around.

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