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zingbat
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The origins of magick
      #1852521 - 10/11/03 07:06 AM

Has anyone ever posed the question about who made the first scroll or who casted the first spell or who enchanted the first magic item ? I have allways been interested in history and on another people lives in general so i made a theory that could explain this.

First of all and before the theory i will not take for granted the info present in the many cosmology books or the name of the gods. Their names are what the prophets gave to them and may be just a religious insight or a true sensation of the presence of another. Only the prophets will ever know.

What i will take is what any man/mer could see with their own eyes or their effects. Magic that breaks the rules of nature without casuality and so is the opposite of science and knowledge and not just natural law that was not yet been discovered. The activation of magic through the interpretation of a magic language. The presence of other entities that communicate with man using a direct dream language (not material beings) and that may or may not grant favors to them. The existence of artifacts that could never possibly be created by any mortal. And of course the moons and the stars, the land, the plants, other creatures magic or not, etc.

My theory is that in a time in the past there was a race of immortals that were not bound to the world and with capability to dominate magic just with their thoughts called the greater spirits. These entities built many artifacts and used for that a group of servants called lesser spirits the ancesters of man/mer. For their servants they created a divine language they could use to an extent to help them cast magic. They also bound fundamental structures of this world into magic sigils of great power.

They used to battle and dispute their divergences but one time they decided that all lesser spirits would become mortal and that they would left this world leaving behind their creations. They still dispute their divergences in this world but they do not interfere much directly. As a consequence, catasthrophic or not, the world was "abandoned" to the lesser spirits now called mortals. Some retain their origins and knowledge of magic (the mer ?) while others lost completely their ancestry and decided to move north (the man ?). Other beings arrived at this world comming from the stars and used other continents to settle in.

So this theory claims that man/mer were the servants of the godlike entities that used to dispute this world.

In another theory i could admit that the presence of supernatural beings was never observed directly. That the man/mer got their magic powers by examining ancient ruins and artifacts that would send messages in dreams to them in some form of supernatural communication. These artifacts would allow them to have a grater insight on world arround them. The first mer were the ones smart enough to dominate magic to an extent and then expanded over all the continent.


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White Cloak
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: zingbat]
      #1852606 - 10/11/03 09:05 AM

The supernatural being would be the Aedra accredited with the creation of magick, Magnus. The race of immortals would be the Old Ehlnofey. What you've said does fit in with the lore and may well be correct.

I agree that not naming the participants can give you a greater knowledge and understanding of events, especially as some attributes of the same being can be named as differents: the tales of Red Mountain and the duplitious House of Dagoth is a well documented case of this.

However, I disagree with this statement.
Quote:

Magic that breaks the rules of nature without casuality and so is the opposite of science and knowledge and not just natural law that was not yet been discovered.




In Nirn, magicka is the accepted norm. Everyone knows that they were created by all powerful beings, that they look like they are because they do. The world is flat. Natural law does not exist: the only true coexistant are the petty whims of the Daedra.


Anyone else want to talk about this? It's an interesting topic.

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OverrideB1
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: zingbat]
      #1854054 - 10/11/03 09:27 PM

You make some good, and valid points, but....
Quote:

Magic that breaks the rules of nature without casuality


Magic, by its very nature, breaks the observable rule of cause/effect.
Quote:

The presence of other entities that communicate with man using a direct dream language (not material beings) and that may or may not grant favors to them


These other entities are the Et'ada and the Daedra, the Daedra tend to communicate rather more directly than just through dreams. Certainly each of the Daedra have, at some point, manifest themselves in the "real" world of Nirn. Such favours as they are asked for are always granted - although in the case of the bad Daedra there is usually a sting in the tail.
Quote:

The existence of artifacts that could never possibly be created by any mortal


There are more examples of these than you could shake a wabbajack at. Many of them, albeit in altered form, appear in the time period of 3E-427 and onwards. But, again by their very nature, magical artifacts may not always maintain a consistant form or function.
Quote:

So this theory claims that man/mer were the servants of the godlike entities that used to dispute this world.


This is fundamentally correct, although you have transposed elements from our "reality's" mythology into the well-known "mythology" of Nirn. The fundamental forces (Et'adra and Daedra) were created by Anu and Padomey. However, at no point in the Lore is it stated that Man and/or Mer were "servants" of the Et'ada or of Anu and Padomey. There are, whoever, cults that worship the Daedra and these could be said to be servants, although not in the sense that you mean.
Quote:

In another theory i could admit that the presence of supernatural beings was never observed directly.


Unfortunately, the Daedra have been seen all too frequently on Nirn, usually with pretty disasterous results. While it is no longer possible to summon the Daedra (at least not within the game), in previous times they could be summoned up with relative ease

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Nigedo
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: zingbat]
      #1854351 - 10/11/03 11:03 PM

I thought you may be interested to read this passage from King Edward: Part XII

'Beech then said, "Do you know what the Resolutions of Zenithar has been saying about the gods and magic?

"This magic power, or Magicka, is just the power generated by the existence of, well, existance itself. When it becomes focused by living beings through natural processes, then it becomes accessible to the gods and goddesses as worship power, which is the next level of Magicka.

"After receiving some from their worshippers, the gods can then concentrate it up to god-level power - the true Magicka. The gods themselves can't generate the mid-level Magicka, since they are dependent on it for their own existence, but they can 'convert it' to Magicka, which can then be used by mortals to cast spells.

"This Magicka is usually dispersed widely across the planes but there are areas of greater and lesser concentration due to interferences with the dispersion process.

"When a goddess loses worshippers, her inflow of mid-level Magicka is decreased, so she in turn produces less god-level Magicka. With less Magicka under her control (for providing to worshippers, or dispersion), her influence is decreased in the mortal planes - of course the converse is also true.

"In the extreme, she receives nothing, and is relegated to a state of Stasis, barely existing from the ordinary Magicka generated by her few remaining Consecrated lands, zones of influence, and so on."

'Beech continued, "On the other hand, Daedra receive very specific, or 'modified' mid-level Magicka from a few mortals with specific areas of interest, and these Daedra are normally tied to very specific circumstances.

"Because of their nature, they gain much more power from their small worship base, but the gods, with their much broader base, generally have greater overall power, even though the amount of concentrated worship that they receive from any one source is much less than a Daedra's.

"Most of the Magicka that the gods 'process' is dispersed into and throughout the universe, no longer under their control, thereby making it available for everyone. It's not really something they do consciously, but as a natural process that happens automatically - in other words ... just because they are divine."

Aliera said, "I would think that Magicka is simply available to sentient beings, although the gods and Daedra could facilitate its usage. I would think that the gods and Daedra have other influences on us as well, because not everyone has spellcasting ability! Maybe in those 'alternate planes' it's actually existance, and not sentient entities, that radiates Magicka, just as the stars give off light in our dimension.

"I just assume that Magicka is 'out there' in the ether, or maybe sentient consciousnesses automatically tap into an alternate plane as they sleep. I think that everyone has some supply of Magicka, but most don't know how to use it very well, or else they adopt a way of life that inhibits or forbids its use.

"Maybe certain gods and Daedra serve as facilitators for the entire process; that is, both obtaining and using Magicka? But how do priests heal and cure and bless? Is Magicka involved at all or do they invoke their goddesses directly?"

Ssa'ass said, "I am not ssssure that Magicka isss usssed; perhapss there isss yet another capability involved here. Thisss capability would be unknown at thisss time, and maybe even unsssenssssed... but I feel fairly certain that sssomehow it is a godly 'force' that they are employing."

Then Geoffrey responded: "Ssa'ass, I believe that Magicka fills the universe of planes. All things are infused with Magicka to one extent or another. In this regard Magicka is attracted to some people and things over others, and some people with talent or training can control and even release Magicka in new forms. There may be other sources of Magicka available by tapping into alternate and otherworldly planes.

"There is also the possibility of alternate planes that are entirely void of Magicka. Regardless, certain beings of great power, such as the gods and Daedra, can not only control Magicka, but can see, absorb, and transfuse Magicka to and from objects and people. By employing this ability, worshippers of these beings are sometimes capable of greater acts of Magic than they could accomplish otherwise.

"Also in this way, some items sacred to powerful beings can be said to be holy, with additional amounts of directed Magicka provided by gods or goddesses."


--------------------
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Masterchiefoo7
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: zingbat]
      #1854721 - 10/12/03 01:12 AM

thats way too much for me too read at 10:00 at night, so I'm just gonna say this:

I think that the nordic tounge came before magic did, and it was somehow passed off into magick, but the nords can still withhold their tounges and magick.

in case no one knows, the nordic touge is the ability where they use thier tounge to create powerful spells and such, like going blahblahblah and destroy a village.

which brings me to another point, does the character "say" the spell out loud? I know that he really doesnt, but shouldnt he? the same hand motion over and over agian isnt gonna make different effects, so I just assume that the PC wispers it or something, and the words would have been to hard to program in.

does that make any sense?

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zingbat
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: Masterchiefoo7]
      #1856277 - 10/12/03 02:59 PM

Great info people. I will have to digest this before answering.
Funny is about the third time someone mentions me the Kings Edward in a lore discussion. Maybe I should read that thing completely. It seams to a good reference on many things.

Im only going to answer to what i can at the moment.

By White Cloak
"The world is flat. Natural law does not exist: the only true coexistant are the petty whims of the Daedra."

Well natural law is not exactly a law so you could say that natural doesnt exist period. What im referening is to the manipulation of natural phenomenons like steam engines, fire, agriculture, smith building. These things are possible because there the "laws of nature" are stable enough to make them possible.
Its like the Einstein clock. We can only see the outside of it and guess that if it works everyday the same way like a clock then its a clock, but what if it is really a bomb and the trigger just takes too much time to activate ?
However non magic use of nature laws means manipulation of laws and not creation or modification of natural laws. But its possible that the mages guild could be seen as both a scientific and pure magic research institution, if they dont make a distintion between the two.

By OverrideB1

"Unfortunately, the Daedra have been seen all too frequently on Nirn, usually with pretty disasterous results. "

They have only seen images of them and perhaps they could be touched. But what about if it was all created by a powerful illusion spell ? Perhaps its all about some group of secret wizards pulling the leg of everyone.

To Nigedo:

The only thing i understand at the moment is that magic has something to do with existence not neccessarly in the mortal plane but in many other planes. It may take several forms and that what people sense has the Gods is the source of them. So maybe the Gods are collective spirits or something like that who personify common thoughts.


By Masterchiefoo7:

"I think that the nordic tounge came before magic did, and it was somehow passed off into magick, but the nords can still withhold their tounges and magick. "

There are many ways to cast magic not just the entonation of magic words. The temple healers apparently cast magic in a different way. Maybe they are connected with different supernatural entities. I dont have a better explanation.

What about the intrinsic way magic works ? In the last Vehk post he mentions (or someone else in the thread) that the dragon breaks create laternate realities. So perhaps when a person casts magic he uses part of his or her existence to create a small alternate world for him but in a much smaller scale than a dragon break. However this is only extrapolation.


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Re: The origins of magick [Re: Masterchiefoo7]
      #1856900 - 10/12/03 07:52 PM

The problem with claiming that magic in Nirn is 'nonscientific' is that you're basing it on the idea that since it's 'nonscientific' in the real world, it's 'nonscientific' there, and that's a false assumption.

On the contrary, it seems to behave in a very predictable, cause-and-effect, scientific fashion there. When one does *this*, the effect is *that*. If that wasn't the case, then magic wouldn't be a particularly controllable or usable force, and there certainly wouldn't be any way to standardize spells in the way that the residents of Nirn seem to have done.

It's not that 'cause and effect' is being violated, it's just that the existence and manipulation of magical energies on Nirn gives it an additional layer of 'causes' that the real universe doesn't have.

Neutronium Dragon


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Conan_of_Skyrim
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: ]
      #1857937 - 10/13/03 05:53 AM

in nirn thet world is a great plane surrounded by the void of oblivion with holes that shine through to Aethirion (or whatever its called) in the real world we call this deluded ancient thinking, in nirn it migh just be the actual truth,

and as for the supernatural its hard to deny what you can actually meet,

'i dont believe in ghosts and undead' says the adventurer

'good for for you' says the ancestor spirit/daedra lord

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zingbat
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: ]
      #1864771 - 10/15/03 06:43 PM

By Neutronion Dagron

"It's not that 'cause and effect' is being violated, it's just that the existence and manipulation of magical energies on Nirn gives it an additional layer of 'causes' that the real universe doesn't have. "

That magic is manipulation of a natural phenomenon being a type of energy that can be controled with the mind.
When using "pure" magic (not analitical manipulation of patterns) the caster would face a labyrith of though and would have to improvise at every turn because the labyrinth would allways look different in every spell.
What the caster achieves becomes part of reality and so is not the manipulation of cause/effect but the creation of a new reality of causes and effects.

Maybe the mages guild deal with both types of magic, the analitical and the improvisation. Remenber that the illusion school of magic is governed by charisma and not intelligence or wisdom like the magic that originates from Magnus seams to be.

By Conan of Skyrim
"in nirn thet world is a great plane surrounded by the void of oblivion with holes that shine through to Aethirion (or whatever its called) in the real world we call this deluded ancient thinking, in nirn it migh just be the actual truth,"

Yes but the habitants of nirn still are limited to watch the sky from the ground and speculate about it in their ignorance or incapability to travel outside their sphere of reality. Some can travel to other planes (teleportation) and call these places different planes, but thats it.

By Conan of Skyrim
"and as for the supernatural its hard to deny what you can actually meet,

'i dont believe in ghosts and undead' says the adventurer

'good for for you' says the ancestor spirit/daedra lord "

Well a ghost is a ghost. Its an observable phenomenon in the phantasy world. But would you believe in everything a supernatural being like a Daedra would tell about their origins ?
Perhaps the people of Nirn accept these aliens just because its convinient for them and with time and the help of the Bards many become myth and folcore and some even become religion.


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-- Veloxi

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Conan_of_Skyrim
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: zingbat]
      #1865973 - 10/16/03 05:10 AM

zingbat your still placing real world preconceptions on the fantasy world, a daedra is more than a mere alien because it cannot be permanently killed, in typical demonic fashion, you kil it it comes back, admitidly its banished from this plane for a time but it can still return,

additionally back in daggerfall when the daedra princes could be summoned, the interaction to my mind seemed to take place in oblivion rather than the daedra turning up in the real world,

Besides with teleportation it is possible to visit the other realms, (though its not easy or for the faint hearted) im fairly certain people have been to oblivion to confirm its nature and relationship,

remember just because its not explicitly stated in the game that something hasnt been done, checked or confirmed dosnt mean it cant or hasnt,

after all there are things which are accepted fact with evidence which i dont know about but i accept the theory explaining the evidence.

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oprion
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: zingbat]
      #1866635 - 10/16/03 01:28 PM

Do I smell Herecy ?

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White Cloak
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: oprion]
      #1866703 - 10/16/03 02:00 PM

Forsooth!
Only Heresy on one count though, Heresy by Thought. That means that we're safe from the Spanish Inquisition (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition) BOOM


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Re: The origins of magick [Re: White Cloak]
      #1867779 - 10/16/03 08:08 PM

Show them the COMFY PILLOWS! O.o;;

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Cjad the Nord
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: ]
      #1867876 - 10/16/03 08:34 PM

This is a very minor tidbit but the Men first began using Magicka during the month of Rain's Hand (Forgot which year) and that is why it is the month of the Mage.

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zingbat
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Re: The origins of magick [Re: Cjad the Nord]
      #1870525 - 10/17/03 05:47 PM

phew I finished reading all the X... books of King Edward. OK its not really a book just one or two pages but in english.

Admiting as a fact that experienced wizards can travel to other planes and daedra can be met in those planes there is some very interesting passage in the books that together with that part of the book in a post above can summon magic very well. Akatosh is not the god akatosh but a dragon who named himself by the name of the God.

Quote:


The dragon had paused, so Edward interjected, "Mother and I have been discussing the nature of the gods recently, Akatosh, and she thinks that poetry would be a godly activity. What do you think about that notion?"
"I am not so certain that one can attribute anything to the gods, Edward. They are another example of an unbounded problem, of course, but also, their characteristics are just not very well known to us."
"But surely one can determine things about any being that is a god?"
Akatosh replied, "I do not think that we can, at present; they are not like the Daedra, who have a nature that is with them at their birth. That is, the Daedra capabilities are inherent in them, and not are the result of any changes that have occurred to them."
Willow interrupted: "Akatosh, we can determine that the gods have a few basic characteristics, can't we?"
Edward added "Of course, Akatosh - they are powerful beings who can perform acts that are incomprehensible to us. That in itself must signify their difference."
Akatosh nodded and replied "I understand your point of view, but to a farming community on Tamriel in our southern lands, that could also describe how they would perceive me. Perhaps this is attributable to the fact that they seldom see a dragon nowadays, but it also does not mean that I am a god ... neither does it mean that I am not a god."
Willow giggled, and said "Of course you're not a god, Akatosh" and Edward, smiling, nodded agreement.
Akatosh replied "How do you know, Willow? I can understand that you would guess that I am not a god, particularly since I am a dragon." He grinned, and then continued "But how can you know that I am not a god?"
Edward scoffingly replied "Well, I know that I'm not a god anyway. And I've certainly never seen you perform any godly acts, Akatosh - you also don't seem to have any worshippers about either."
The Companions were smiling and generally agreeing with this, but Akatosh responded "But that does not mean that I have no worshippers, nor does it mean that I cannot perform any godly acts - it just means that you have not seen either of these. I am not yet certain that gods and goddesses require worshippers to maintain their existence. And as I said, I can perform magic that would look like 'godly acts' to many Tamrielians."






Then after jumping a couple of paragraphs:


Quote:


Akatosh smiled and replied "It is not so easy to describe the gods, is it? This is true even though, myself included, each of us thinks that we have a mental picture of what godliness means. On the other hand, the gods and goddesses certainly do exist - and I also believe that there is a connection of some sort between them and the Daedra, and another connection between these entities and the power associated with performing magic."
"The priests of Julianos have been calling this power 'Magicka'" said a stranger who had joined the group.
Akatosh replied "Greetings bard. Please allow me to introduce ... Geoffrey, a ... wandering poet who has been visiting our village for these last few days." The Companions greeted the wood elf newcomer, some rising to their feet to do so according to their individual customs, and then all resumed sitting (actually sprawling about) and conversing.
"A number of priests are theorizing that the gods and goddesses live on another plane, as do the Daedra - there is some debate amongst these priests as to whether they share the same plane of existence, or whether each has their own. And some of the Alessian priests are claiming that we can visit these alternate planes in our nightly dreams" added Beech.
Edward asked "Why doesn't someone just ask a goddess or a Daedra about this?"
Geoffrey chuckled and replied "Most of us are not able to be so thoughtful when confronted by one of these beings, Edward. Also, there is a common belief that the gods and Daedra are as reluctant to discuss their own natures as dragons are to reveal anyone's True Name."





Now after reading the part Nigedo put here it seams to state that the world and man dreams, feelings, battles and great deeds fuel the gods and allow them to be present in the world as well as the Daedra.
The Gods and the Daedra further process this fuel and convert it to magicka for people use.
The magicka can be use in many ways and the temple healers can perform mircales without magic invocation (magic words). The gods apply magica in controled way. The daedra disperse it and grant magica by giving special magic items. But the mistery still remains and that is invoked magica, the use of sounds and special words to cast magic.
I think the text cleary states that magica can be used without invocation by many different means, but the invocation of magic is a mistery. In Daggerfall it is said it originates from Magnus the architect of the world that had to left the creation in a hurry and left a chaos of magic energy that is the source of invoked magic.
The King Edward book doesnt explain when the first scrolls appear or the first magic words were invoked. Maybe after examining some old ruins and trying to read old spellbooks some people with special characteristics were able to divine their use. Still I have a preference for the idea that man/mer were once lesser servants of the Ehlnofey and that the high elfs are the heritage of their knowledge after they disapear.


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