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The Dwarves Theory
      #1681128 - 08/06/03 05:49 PM

Perhaps this topic has already been touched on but does anyone have a theory as to what are on the last 2 continents I'm talking about Atmora and the as-yet-unexplored-unnamed far southern continent. I have a theory as to whats on the southern continent at least and even this is a shot in the dark...but couldn't the Dwarves have "relocated" instead of just disappered. Since nobody has ever seen the southern island its very possible that the Dwarves and maybe even some of the more ancient Gods themselves could be living it up, planning to destroy the whole world and no one would ever even know about it...I think the only way to reach said continent would be by air anyways...the reason for this is the destruction of Yokuda. When it was destroyed where did the land itself go...its possible that with the destruction of the Redguard homeland the attackers miscalculated the power of destroying an entire land and in doing so created a gigantic reef of one kind or another which makes it impassible to ships...at least ships in the sea. But the Dwarves have airships and judging by the way they left in such a hurry a mass evacuation by all their "clans" or "kinfolk" around Nirn could only lead them to the one domain that no other humanoid had claimed...and thats the air itself. So they left their homes knowing no other race would be able to follow them and cause the same kind of destruction which they were obviously doing to other continents around Nirn...a pretty sound theory. BTW does anyone know for sure what exactly is on Atmora right now? The tales say its where the Nords are from...if so then that is the second time a race of people has relocated for one reason or another...whew...any comments would be greatly appreciated!!

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phil_t
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1681136 - 08/06/03 05:54 PM

Erm... this is an interesting theory, i'll just raise a coupla points for now

When in conversation with Vivec, he says that he can feel the existence of all the inhabitants of the Mundus, but that he cannot feel the Dwemer - this suggests that if they still exist it is not on the plane of the Mundus.

Second, Yokuda was not to the South of Tamriel, therefore even if it did stop shipping it would not be in that direction. Yokuda is to the west of Tamriel, Atmore to the North.

Thirdly, the Dwarves disappeared in an instant, they did not have the time to escape on airships

Hope this helps

Phil

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: phil_t]
      #1681148 - 08/06/03 05:57 PM

Well the theory is nice, but the relocation could have been done in a second just like a dissapearence. But like Phil_t said Vivec can sence live on Mundus and can't sence the Dwarves and there is Yagrum to, he would have been able to sence them to, the theory is nice, but i don't think its true.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1681179 - 08/06/03 06:06 PM

Yes I know of the Vivec talk...I also know you cant trust the Tribunal anyways

Second yes I am very aware that Yokuda is on the west of Tamriel...but its like dropping a rock in a full glass of water theres got to be displacment somewhere and since Highrocks not underwater I would have to assume it went somewhere else...as for the "Vivec, Yagrum Sence stuff" barriers and blockades can be made from yet unharnessed magicks for whatever reason be needed...and lastly who exactly said that the Dwarves dissapeared in a flash...was it a human, an orc, or an elf...if its the elf then 100 years passes by them in a flash!! But valid points you both make nontheless!!

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1681185 - 08/06/03 06:08 PM

I agree, Fish. As nice as it would be to find the Dwemer, it seems they have been all but annihilated, leaving only one corpus-ridden member, who only goes on living for hope of a cure and finding his people.

Perhaps in some future installment they will truly return, but as of yet, the Dwemer are lost to Mundus. The hinted game title of Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, however, has possibilities...

Actually, the mer do not see 100s of years as flashes. Back then, it is doubtful most mer made it to their full lifespan of 1000 years. Even in modern Nirn most Dunmer live to only their early 100s. When they say the Dwemer vanished suddenly, it means that the Dwemer vanished without any form of preparation. EVERY source, man and mer alike, say the Dwemer simply disappeared while on the battlefield, and no other living Dwemer, save for Yagrum, has been found since.

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Edited by TSBasilisk (08/06/03 06:12 PM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1681197 - 08/06/03 06:11 PM

Quote:

I agree, Fish. As nice as it would be to find the Dwemer, it seems they have been all but annihilated, leaving only one corpus-ridden member, who only goes on living for hope of a cure and finding his people.

Perhaps in some future installment they will truly return, but as of yet, the Dwemer are lost to Mundus. The hinted game title of Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, however, has possibilities...




Maybe the left him behind for fear of an outbreak...corprus must have been very new in their time...which probably would have caused him to lose his connection to them anyway since he had a yet unknown disease...

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1681202 - 08/06/03 06:13 PM

Quote:

Maybe the left him behind for fear of an outbreak...corprus must have been very new in their time...which probably would have caused him to lose his connection to them anyway since he had a yet unknown disease...




When the Dwemer dissapeared he did not yet have Corprus they would have connected him then, they can talk threw the mind, so they would have talked to him and told him where they were, why wouldn't they. He got Corprus during his searchs thats why he still lives.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1681206 - 08/06/03 06:14 PM

He contracted corpus long after the disappearance. Corpus did not arise for centuries after the disappearance. He was struck with it when he returned to Red Mountain after futilely wandering Nirn in search of another Dwemer. He was not left for fear of contagion.

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Edited by TSBasilisk (08/06/03 06:15 PM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1681229 - 08/06/03 06:23 PM

Corprus Disease in itself is not new...as a matter of fact its probably the oldest disease on the planet...one of the "M" gods created the first vampire...from the manual "Corprus Disease cant be cured...Some say vampirism is a disease,but no known cure seems to exist"...in theory maybe he had already contracted the disease and a High Priest or whatever greater power senced this and told the Dwarves to leave...but no one really knows about Ol' Yagrum now do they?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1681456 - 08/06/03 07:29 PM

There is no connection between vampirism and corpus. Vampirism was a curse created by Molag Bal, transmitted by a carrier virus. Corpus is a direct result of Dagoth Ur tampering with the Heart.

When Dagoth began directly connecting to the heart for power, he began to also acquire some of the less than beneficial properties of it, and it ended in the creation of corpus, which is more of a curse than a disease. He and his fellow Ash Vampires managed to surmount the ill effects of corpus, allowing them to access the power of the Heart of Lorkhan. This occurred only after they awoke from their slumber beneath Red Mountain and were bound to the Heart. By this time, centuries had passed since the destruction of the Dwemer.

Corpus did not arise until centuries after the time it would have needed to be there. Yagrum contracted it long after his species vanished.

Besides which, Yagrum was in Oblivion or some other plane outside of Mundus when his race vanished. That is the reason he did not die/vanish/ascend.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1681487 - 08/06/03 07:41 PM

Quote:

There is no connection between vampirism and corpus. Vampirism was a curse created by Molag Bal, transmitted by a carrier virus. Corpus is a direct result of Dagoth Ur tampering with the Heart.




Those are rumors Molag Bal didn't create Vampirism there is no proof of that, and if your talking about him curing Vampirism listen to that speach again.

Quote:

Besides which, Yagrum was in Oblivion or some other plane outside of Mundus when his race vanished. That is the reason he did not die/vanish/ascend.




Even though i agree with you on everything you said, that doesn't mean that a Corprus being couldn't be in Oblivion as well, atleast not with the powers of a Dwemer, so this not really evidence of him not having Corprus, altough he didn't have Corprus because of your previous points.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1681493 - 08/06/03 07:44 PM

There's also the fact that he wandered Nirn for centuries after returning from Oblivion. During this time, the corpus would have surely manifested itself, but it only cropped up when he returned to Vvardenfell.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1682521 - 08/07/03 03:34 AM

Or maybe returning to Vvardenfell just turned on the switch in his peticular case...and besides most theories as to what happened to the Dwarves all come from the Eastern provinces anyways...yes vampirism and corprus are not directlly involved with each other but its very well possible that both existed long before the beggining of written history on Nirn...so in theory...Yagrum contractes the disease unknowingly...Dwarves banish him to Oblivion for the dreaded outbreak scare...Dwarves then relocate for fear of Yagrum's return and a full blown outbreak of yet-unamed disease severing their mind ties with him and the gods...with so much evil energy about the planet and so many world shaking events the Dwarves could have left at any time between pre-history and the so called "Red Mountain Incident" with Neverar. The only other option I can even think of if their not on the far southern continent is Secunda itself...while this has been long speculated as the "home of Daedra" Its very much possible that the Dwarves either: A. fled to aforementioned southern continent or B: forced the Daedra into Oblivion after invading their world with the wanning magical powers of the magicka fountains...so between there already impressive engineering skills and keen sence of magick they could have easily opened a portal or whatever you want to call it and went through full force...banishing the Daedra, taking care of an outbreak, and severing their ties to the Nirn Gods all in one swoop but as I stated earlier in this assignment diseases had to have been around long before "Dagoth Ur" was a household name so finding out that Yagrum, or an elf, or a nix hound that just looks a little sickly could have caused them to leave rather quickly for once again..fear of an outbreak....questions, comments, specutlation?

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1682990 - 08/07/03 05:40 AM

Quote:

forced the Daedra into Oblivion




Daedra were their before the mortall world, the Dwemer have left Mundus, that means they are nowere on Nirn, these are not theory's they are pretty much profen the Dwemer are either death or somewere outside of Mundus. No other possibility, and Yagrum did not have the disease before his people dissapeared, now i won't say its because of Corprus but think about this.

Yagrum searched his life searching for a race that banished him? Why?

When you talk to him he says he got Corprus during his search not before.

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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683031 - 08/07/03 05:50 AM

1E700 - the Dwemeri disappear.
2E882 - Dagoth Ur awakens under Red Mountain and binds himself and the "ash vampires" to Lorkhan's Heart. When the Tribunal arrive for the annual ritual to refresh their link to the Heart, they are driven back. Over the next 433 years, the Tribunal make many assaults on Red Mountain, but are unable to complete the binding ritual.It is during this period that Dagoth Ur starts to recruit Dreamers and Sleepers. The weaker cultists become corprus beasts, while the stronger ones "ascend" towards the status of Ascended Sleeper. (This is the first recorded reference to corprus).

As you can see from this, there is a period of some three thousand years between the disappearance of the Dwemeri and the first recorded reference to corprus.While it is possible that a corprus-like disease existed (and maybe even corprus itself) before 2E882, it is very unlikely that nobody would have recorded its existence in three millennia!

More interesting is the fact that Yagrum must have been somewhere else for a very long time. Even allowing a thousand years between the first case of Corprus and it being recorded, that still leaves a period of two thousand years when Yagrum was "wandering". Does this point to a temporal-discontinuity between the Mundas and "the Outer Realms"? In other words, does a day in the Outer Realms equal a day in the Mundas? Yagrum may have spent only a short time (subjectively) in the Outer Realms, but millennia may have passed in the Mundas. This would explain the disparity.
But, as ever, I go off at a tangent on things I misunderstand...

Secunda isn't the home of the Daedra. Secunda is part of the body of Lorkhan and, like the Mundas, is an infinite plane. All records point to the fact that Oblivion (the void between the planes) is the home of the Daedra.

"The Calling" appears to be, from what I've read, a form of telepathy. There was no magicka involved, just the ability to communicate mind-to-mind. Even if they were capable of raising mental shields to block their thoughts from Yagrum, wouldn't he be able to detect their presence by the very presence of those shields. A thing hidden is not the same as a thing not present. Besides, Vivec's powers are trans-mundane and I find it difficult to believe that any Dwemeri technology or technique could block the powers of a god.

As to my own personal theory, I believe that Azura had more to do with the disappearance than we yet know. My theory is that the Dwemer were in the very act of Ascencion when Azura moved them to a place where time moves very differently to how it moves in the Grey Maybe. Thousands of years have passed for the inhabitants of Tamriel, less than a heartbeat for the Dwemer.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1683170 - 08/07/03 06:23 AM

Override is right...3000 years of unwritten history is a long time by any races standards and in theory if Vivec couldn't know that Dagoth Ur was on his way back or maybe couldn't sence it (see it) then its very possible they(Dwarves) could have slipped out unnoticed...as for the Lorkhan's body theory thats what the people here think it is and since no one knows for sure where the Daedra came from in the first place it's very possible the Dwarves through there science, magick, and superior technology they very well could have known that the Daedra were living on Secunda...what with their observatory equipment and such...and just decided to invade Secunda through some sort of weird dimensional shift or something...all in all the Dwarves knew about the stars and heavens...maybe Azura seen their imenent dimise at the hands of a great plague and instead gave them an option...Force the Daedra into Oblivion or suffer from a great disease...after the Dwarves made their choice Azura probably "mind-wipped" or whatever the other races on Nirn into thinking it was a flash...even though it could've been more like 100 years or even 3000 years...in any point no one knows for sure what happened...there's just too much unrecorded time inbetween...while I believe my theory to be one of the soundest ones I've heard I'm more then sure there's a few sceptics out there that will tell me this is impossible...then answer this question....How come in nearly 5000 years of history,no race has ever ventured to find out about these Lost 2 continents? I figured at least the Nords would have made an attempt to find such a large landmass...but anyways this is off topic!!

Questions,Comments,Constructive Criticism...?

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683201 - 08/07/03 06:31 AM

You don't get it do you, the Dwarves lived all over Tamriel, they dissapeared all over Tamriel it was recorded in the Elder Scrolls, wich record a lot of history, i don't know when the Elder scrolls were started, but anything of living Dwemer would be said there.

Vivec can see all of Mundus, but the power of the Heart of Lorkhan hides Dagoth Ur from him, he can't see in the heart chamber, Vivec can see everything outside the heart chamber, Now Lorkhan is a incredibly powerful Daedra who was the one that tricked the Aedra into creating the Mortal world, wich means Daedra were alive before the Mortalls.

The Dwemer are gone into a other dimension or death, Yagrum would have senced him, Vivec would have, and Azura would have claimed it if she would have killed or moved the Dwemer, it would give her much respect and make it harder for the Tribunal to get the Daedra worshippers to stop worshipping.

Another thing why would Azura have removed or kill all Dwemer if she could and not just done the same thing to the Tribunal? I mean the Dwemer dissapeared when they used the heart, the Tribunal knew how to use it just like Dagoth Ur, and they stayed Azura would have had better reasons to destroy those four people then the Dwemer race.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1683238 - 08/07/03 06:42 AM

I understand perfectly well what your saying...but how come the Elder Scrolls speak nothing of it...whats on those two lost continents? The Dwarves knew that Secunda was a celestial body same as Nirn...would you leave if people were reaveling you as a God...true Daedra probably were around 10 million years before any inhabitants but where did they come from and dont say Oblivion because 0 + 0 = 0

besides that most Tamriel History is written by unknown people who could've just been making it up as they went...I'll leave this alone when someone can tell me whats on those last 2 continents...if thats even possible...

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683251 - 08/07/03 06:46 AM

Would you please forget about that, Vivec can see all of Mundus that means those two continents to, Yagrum can talk to them threw some kind of Telepathic stuff, he would have known their is no way they are still anywere on Nirn, do a search at the Imperial library..

http://12.145.63.45/~xanathar/

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1683267 - 08/07/03 06:51 AM

And let's just look at mere probability. There are 3 possible cases:

1. Because of the Dwemer's blasphemy in trying to create their own God, they are all destroyed by the gods, except for Yagrum who was in Oblivion at the time.

2. Because of the Dwemer's blasphemy, they are transported to another plane in which time moves incredibly slowly, and so it will take billions of years for a second to pass, thus preventing their ascension ,but not permanently.

3. Because of corprus, Yagrum is banished for a time to Oblivion, they all travel to a far off continent that no once can reach, and create a mind-block preventing Yagrum and Vivec from sensing their existence.

Look at those, and you'll see which one is simply the most probable. #1. It's a lot easier to simply kill off a race then to move it, plus moving them would not have been a solid solution, which only killing is. Also, the Dwemer were about to make themselves a god, and make themselves invincible...why would they stop this because of one of their kind suddenly contracting corprus. It would have been easier for them to just kill him by an assassin (keeping themselves safe from the disease), and they wouldn't have lost ALL of their work with the Heart. Plus, why would Yagrum have no recollection of his banishment to Oblivion, and catching the disease before then?

Also, there are books in Morrowind which tell of the Chimeri alliance fighting the Dwemer on Red Mountain, and then as Kagrenac uses the tools on the Heart, everyone suddenly sees the Dwemer just disappear, their suits of armour falling to the ground, empty. There are stories of people seeing the Dwemer disappearing, not just waking up one day and not seeing any.

I'm sorry, but there is just too much information pointing to the Dwemer's [almost] complete and absolute destruction.

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mafafu
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683329 - 08/07/03 07:16 AM

Quote:

Daedra probably were around 10 million years before any inhabitants but where did they come from




Daedra come from the blood of Padomay and existed before the mortal world was created and before linear time. So saying 10 million years ago doesn't really mean anything before linear time.

Read The Annotated Anuad for info on this.

Also, according to both major accounts of Red Mountain, the Dwemer completely disappeared instantly. This doesn't necessarily make you wrong, you just don't seem to have any proof, only conjecture.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: mafafu]
      #1683401 - 08/07/03 07:40 AM

Mafafu...Weren't there 3 major accounts of the Red Mountain incident?
I trust your judgement nontheless...

Enternall Fish...I've repeatedly searched great Xanathar's library at least 50 times...my main goal of this thread is to know whats on the 2 unexplored continents which is a possibility that the Dwarves went there...

Switch Moo...I trust your input as well but let me ask you this...if they can make a God couldn't they hide from one too? I think #'s 2 & 3 are definite possibilities...since there's really no record of anyone ever exploring one of the continents...just that Nords come from Atmora and what exactly could have driven the Nords that far south across the ocean in the first place...I can see this wont be resolved anytime soon...

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mafafu
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683439 - 08/07/03 07:51 AM

There is a third one that I know of, but it doesn't really add any new information. The two I was referring to are:

The Battle of Red Mountain
Nerevar at Red Mountain

The other is Kagrenac's Tools but it is a summary and doesn't seem to add anything new.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683451 - 08/07/03 07:54 AM

Oke im sick of this, lets make a poll on wich is most likely, not that a poll will solve it but oke.


The Dwarves did what?
They died
They whent to a other dimension
Azura killed them
Azura has teleported them to a other dimension
Azura has teleported them to a other continent
They whent to a other continent blocking them from everybody

View the results for this poll



I think they either died or dissapeared, pherhaps you won't agree with us, but maybe this poll can help you or me see what the general oppinion here is about this.



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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: mafafu]
      #1683473 - 08/07/03 07:59 AM

I know what your talking about it was a third perspective from.....damn Skooma smoke....I'm not sure but I read somewhere there was a full third perspective...could've been in Tureynal someplace...Like I previously mentioned: not resolved anytime soon...but thanx anyways...

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Switch_moo
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1683737 - 08/07/03 09:27 AM

One87, I wasn't saying that for sure they were killed by the gods, or that the other two possibilities are completely wrong. I'm just saying that, looking at the information we have at our disposal, it seems most likely that #1 was the true account. At least, to me it seems the most reasonable. I think it was Sherlock Holmes who said something along the lines of "Discard the impossible and least probable. Whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be true." But it's all conjecture...if we can but get to that 3rd continent, then it could explain so much.

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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Switch_moo]
      #1683808 - 08/07/03 09:52 AM

While it is possible that the Dwemer were killed by the Daedra, the same problem applies as applies to my theory. Wouldn't the Daedra be crowing about it? Ha, look what happens when you mortals try to become gods, we stomp your arse into dust - just like we did with the Dwemer
However, there is one absolutely reliable, unimpeachable source that can tell us what happened to the Dwemer. The devs - and they ain't talking. Until they do, any theory is just that - a theory.

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mafafu
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1684061 - 08/07/03 11:42 AM

This is something I just thought of. We don't know for sure exactly when it was that the Dwemer disappeared upon using the tools of Kagrenac. One account says:

Quote:

Kagrenac turned his tools upon the Heart, and Nerevar said he saw Kagrenac and all his Dwemer companions at once disappear from the world




While another account says:

Quote:

Dagoth-Ur slew Kagrenac and took the tools the Dwemer used to tap the power of the Heart. He went to his dying lord Nerevar and asked him what to do with these tools. And Nerevar summoned Azura again, and she showed them how to use the tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people.

And on the fields, the Tribunal and their armies watched as the Dwemer turned into dust all around them as their stolen immortality was taken away.





So, the Dwemer either disapeared directly upon using the Heart, either for their arrogance (doubtful since the Tribunal got off with this much easier) or because they made a mistake. OR, they successfully connected themselves to the Heart and gained a form of immortality, but were destroyed (disapperared) when the tools and the Heart were used against them.

Also, remember the secret message from Sermon Zero:

Quote:

To the Dwemer and Oblivion belong this treasure and they are there dead.




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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: mafafu]
      #1684135 - 08/07/03 12:05 PM

Now were getting somewhere (congrats to me for actually getting 100+ people to look at this)...and your right the dev's ain't talking...whatever they have planned for those continents its gonna be big...

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1684647 - 08/07/03 02:54 PM

I'm starting to think you're not listening, One87. The information clearly points to the annihilation of the Dwemer. Go here, and read the info:

http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/dwemer.shtml

As stated there, the specifics are unknown, but there is virtually no chance of any other outcome. And not a SINGLE fact points to the Dwemer settling on that island. They would have had to get every member in Vvardenfell, on Morrowind, and convince those in Hammerfell to give up their self-imposed exile. This mass exodus would have been obvious to any recorder of history.

Also, Secunda is not actually a planet, it is a plane. Due to the limits of the mortal mind, it perceives an infinite body as a bubble.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1684726 - 08/07/03 03:35 PM

Ive read this time and time again ...but more too the point that particular site happens to be were I got the theory from originally...if you really go back and read all the information there you'll know that some Dwarves could teleport beyond the mortal plane...plus Morrowind isn't the only place an airship was left behind at...but since you brought the site back into the full spectrum of attention it just raises another question that I have...'If you cant figure out what happened to the Dwarves then lets try the Giants...maybe their on the Northern Continent...maybe they drove the Nords south'...but this is off topic so I'll get back to it...I stick by my theory, theres too much solid evidence to support the facts....

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1684751 - 08/07/03 03:46 PM

What evidence supports which facts? You have built an elaborate theory off of bits of info, and seem to ignore the holes left in it. I'm sorry if this seems a flame, but I have yet to hear you give any "solid evidence." You're proposing a theory, and that is good, but you seem to refuse the position of others, simply brushing it off in ways which are impossible in the Nirn world.

And I cannot believe I am sitting here arguing over a theory on a non-existent race in a game.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1684912 - 08/07/03 05:18 PM

Quote:

if you really go back and read all the information there you'll know that some Dwarves could teleport beyond the mortal plane



They could go into other planes, not other continents. If they could teleport to any random continent at any Random time, the war against the Chimer would not even have been a issue it would have been won before it had even started, nobody can defeat a teleporting army, so forget that.

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phil_t
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1685438 - 08/07/03 09:30 PM

Quote:

And I cannot believe I am sitting here arguing over a theory on a non-existent race in a game.




As opposed to what we normally do on these forums

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1686149 - 08/08/03 03:12 AM

I'm sorry you take my stubborness for ignorance Mr. Basilisk...as for the "facts", I seem to not only see a picture of an airship and read that "some were able to teleport beyond their known plane" but I've happened to see said observatory quite repeatedly...ok since this is obviously the discussion that will not end I'll say this...'Why would the most technologically advanced race on the planet,for whatever reason,just not take over the world?' Because as I've stated in previous posts due to thier advancedness they knew there were other planets if not just other continents, they could fly across Nirn and explore the reaches that no one else has seen...they could determine that the "great balls of light in the sky" were nothing more than meteors burning up in the atmosphere...if they knew this then they knew that there were other "planes,planets,celestial bodies in the heavens" and thats probably half the reason that they tryed to create their own God...not so much as conqueroring, but exploring outside their normal means...mmm maybe were going about this wrong...maybe we should start from their beginning and hopefully learn about their ending...but since no one knows where they came from how can we ever know where they went?...however I personally believe that they came, explored, learned, than left for whatever reason...could've been for fear of a plague...could've been they tapped into the Daedra channel and seen they were up to no good...could've been the Gods just feared their power, so they sent them elsewhere...not just killed them...could've been when they were making their "God" as you call it they realized it could zap them all straight to Secunda, but I think their "God" was just a means of fast travel...but the other races, The Tribunal,and anyone else who didn't understand them just dismissed it as "their making a God to destroy us" when it was much more inicent than that...in any case if no one knows where they came from exactly (Atmora,Southern Continent,other planet,etc) how could we ever know where they went...they could've come from the southern continent, used the Morrowind volcanic activity to their advantage...then just left as fast as they had come...anythings possible.....



Btw: Yes I do realize that I'm arguing over a race of unknowns from a game...but it's better than robbing houses, or killing people, besides where I live there's nothing better to do anyways (in case your next question" is maybe you should get a life" I have one...and besides my GF happens to like the game too...it was initially her idea to find out what happened to them anyways...I just set it in motion.....

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1686299 - 08/08/03 03:59 AM

The god they were creating was a god, did you ever go to Dagoth Ur in the MQ, then look at that big statue in the heart Chamber that's Akulahn the second Nimuden ( if thats how it spelled ) The dwarves created the first but never finished and it was given to Tiber Septim and he used it to conqeur Tamriel, ( i think ). They were creating a god. They didn't go to a other system, they couldn't travel to other planets they could travel to other dimensions. Those are two completly different things.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1686322 - 08/08/03 04:06 AM

Whats to say a dimension isn't another planet...besides its just a theory...in all honesty I still believe that their on the Southern Continent...probably planning a return...

Btw: I've finished the Main Quest several times...but that really doesn't help my theory....

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1686327 - 08/08/03 04:07 AM

Quote:

Whats to say a dimension isn't another planet...besides its just a theory...in all honesty I still believe that their on the Southern Continent...probably planning a return...

Btw: I've finished the Main Quest several times...but that really doesn't help my theory....




What i said was that they couldn't teleport to a other continent, only to other dimensions.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1686349 - 08/08/03 04:14 AM

If you can teleport yourself from Balmora to Sarith Mora then who's to say the most technologically advanced race on the planet couldn't teleport from Morrowind to who-knows-where....

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1686371 - 08/08/03 04:19 AM

From Sadrith Mora to Balmora, is threw magick, to the other dimension whas telephaty it had nothing to do with magick, it was just something they could do. Imagine if they could teleport anywere they wanted at any time, they would not have to worry about diseases or threads, the Chimer and Nords would never have stood a chance, its impossible if they could teleport everywere they wanted they would be stupid, wich they are not both on the battlefield and in technology were smart.





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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1686487 - 08/08/03 04:51 AM

Maybe you missed my point...only some of them can teleport long distances or across dimensions or whatever...but it only takes one to teleport to oh lets just say...Atmora...now when the first one teleports there he could easily have contacted the others through their "calling" or whatever it is and gave them the exact location to send a small band to construct a teleportation gate or portal of some kind to bring the rest through...once the main force was through the remaining Dwarves could have simply boarded the airship's and followed to their location...the first one was like a scout...from then on they could work in peace to get to their main goal (or goals I should say) which was probably either the Southern Continent or Secunda...since the Southern Continent is unexplored magicka fountains probably are still in existence, between their technology and their keen understanding of Nirn and magicks they could have easily created some kind of "way" to reach the outer heavens...specifically Secunda...and drove the Daedra that lived there into Oblivion...thus they now have thier own planet where they can make as many "Gods" as they see fit with no interuptions of any kind...assuming Secunda (or Lorkhans Body as you all call it) has some sort of geological activity (earthquake, storm, volcanic activity) they could have continued thier research without interruption...


BTW: If Secunda is the body of Lorkhan and not just a planet...how much untapped resources do you think would be there...that would at least give them motive...and since they could see it through thier observatories...they probably knew what was there...but as always the fight between "magic & technology" leaves lots of unanswered questions....

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Klinefelter
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1686498 - 08/08/03 04:55 AM

lets say the dwemer COULD teleport to a different plane. its a possibility, i'll conciede that. but look at the situation. the battle of red mountain, the dwemer were about to achieve their ultimate goal. they had won, they were about to use the tools on the heart and achieve immortality. but if your theory is true, why the piss did they teleport somewhere else right before they achieved victory?? it dosent make sense. when youre about to make your whole race gods, you dont just randomly initiate a mass inter-dimensional teleport of your entire species and leave the means to become immortal sitting behind. the dwemer did not teleport away. they were all destroyed by a form of divine intervention, most likely on behalf of azura. forget your lore references. lore can be bent. look at common sense.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1686513 - 08/08/03 04:58 AM

Edit: Listen to Klinefelter he's right it wouldn't make any sence.

Secunda is a moon why would the Dwarves want to go to a moon? Besides you said Airships, i found no airships of the Dwarves in all of Morrowind, Tribunal and Bloodmoon pherhaps i missed one, but not one airship that was created by the Dwarves.

And at the battle of the Red mountain they wouldn't have had the time to actually get into those airships and move towards a other continent, and then again their is that thing about Vivec being able to see Mundus and Yagrum Bagarn to sence them, i think that they died, and are atleast of this plane.

For some reason i can't seem to convince you though that every fact book and theory about the Dwemer states that they either died, or dissapeared none even mentions airships or moving to a other continent teleporting huge distances, still that is pretty much your theory.

So decide what you want for yourself, i am clearly unable to convince you that your theory altough nice, doesn't make much sence with the facts. So i won't try anymore. Unless i really can't resist to reply.

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Edited by Enternall_fish (08/08/03 04:59 AM)

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Klinefelter
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1686551 - 08/08/03 05:07 AM

pfft, of course im right.

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Nigedo
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1687666 - 08/08/03 10:01 AM

I can't resist, I must know.

Why should the Dwemer choose to relocate to Secunda, One87?

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1688481 - 08/08/03 01:50 PM

Ok...through countless hours of shifting over facts and combing through ruins, myself and significant other have come to the conclusion that there will never be a conclusion to this question...Nigedo to answer your question we assumed they left for Secunda(they do have observatories in more than one location)...maybe they found it of religious significance...and upon discovering what power it could hold (since you all say it's Lorkhans Body) found a way to get there to harness this power...at any rate you win...we'll give up the thread...much to our disappointment...because we found a much better question to ask anyways after all our tireless searches....


"Who in the hell was leading these people? They very well didn't wake up one day and start building war machines and observatories...they had to be organized and ruled (or controlled by someone)...oh yeah we speculate that the "ruins" aren't ruins at all (no really permanent living quarters,appears to be very few inhabitants) but factories of some kind...probably for making the machines they have...but anyways "Who was leading these people?" answer that and we'll never post in the Elder Scrolls Lore section ever again...(btw I found no mention whatever of a leader of any sort...but maybe I missed something)

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1688879 - 08/08/03 04:27 PM

Two people. King Dumac, who led the people, and Kagrenec who led the Tonal Architects. Holds also had lords who convened at times and answered to Dumac. BTW, it can be assumed that the Dwemer ruins are not complete. It is entirely possible hundreds of chambers have been lost because their entrances were buried by the centuries or are hidden from the ordinary passerby. Or they just require some secret only the Dwemer understood.

On a parting note to your theory, I have no idea what evidence you ever had or found. You had words which you put together. This theory is elaborate, but goes against every tad of lore on the Dwemer. All I really want to know, is who else supported this theory?

And Fish, there were Dwemer Airships. In one of the earlier games I believe there was a Dwemer Dirigible.

Also, don't feel the need to leave the Lore forever. Just try to listen a little more to the facts.

PS: If you couldn't find the references to Dumac and Kagrenec, two of THE most important people in the Dwemer race, how can we take your facts seriously?

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Edited by TSBasilisk (08/08/03 04:31 PM)

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1688973 - 08/08/03 05:12 PM

Quote:

...(btw I found no mention whatever of a leader of any sort...but maybe I missed something)





Dumac, Kragnec high priest of the Dwemer, the one that created the profane tools, also known as the Kragnec tools, the same tools u use to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan, they are what could build and shape the heart.

I can't beleave you made a theory about the Dwarves and did not even know this, this is basic stuff its mentioned like 50x threw the MQ.

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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1691125 - 08/09/03 09:24 AM

Just because there are no living quarters in the visitable and accessible parts of the Dwemeri ruins doesn't mean that there were none. For all we know, there may be massive living areas buried under tons of rubble in areas we cannot access. Remember, by the time of ES3, we are talking 3543 years since the Dwemeri vanished. That's three and a half millennia for the lower reaches of the ruins to collapse - Look at the physical state of the Parthanon, that's pretty much a match for the sort of time-span we are discussing here.
As to you not knowing who ruled the Dwemeri, I find that confusing since - as mentioned above - it's repeated many times in the main quest. Still, perhaps you hadn't got that far in the game.
You seem to have got yourself hung up on this southern continent. To date nobody bar the Devs has any clues as to what is there. It may be that you are correct and that is where the Dwemeri went, however it wouldn't be consistant with "recorded history". However, since the Eldar Scroll games tend to be logically consistant, it is very very unlikely that you are correct.
Don't give up on this forum just because you've had one theory shot out from under you, been there, done that. Next time, do a little more research (I recommend the Imperial Library here as the basis for further research projects.

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Nigedo
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Leaving the ES forum? [Re: ]
      #1692042 - 08/09/03 02:54 PM

Don't be disheartened One87, you have provoked a debate and caused forum users to reaffirm their own understanding of the subject matters.

This is always a positive thing and, hopefully, a process by which we all learn.

Discussion is what the forum is about, not necessarily agreement.

And you are welcome to post whatever thoughts you may have.


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phil_t
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Re: Leaving the ES forum? [Re: Nigedo]
      #1692131 - 08/09/03 03:36 PM

Quote:

However, since the Eldar Scroll games tend to be logically consistant




Must be some other Elder Scrolls you've been studying

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OverrideB1
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Re: Leaving the ES forum? [Re: phil_t]
      #1693313 - 08/10/03 02:09 AM

Quote:

Must be some other Elder Scrolls you've been studying



It's more consistant than any other game series I've played

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Re: Leaving the ES forum? [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1717333 - 08/17/03 03:20 AM

Look people...we give up on this, out of all the people that posted 99% was negative input...which leaves very few people (Nigedo, very few others) which gave positive input...so lets let this one go the way of the dodo and just die...besides like I've said a 100 times it is just a theory there is no right or wrong answer...so its dead...now we're going to try something else (My gf came up with a good one while we were on vacation:"How come Ebony is considered 'God's Blood' while Daedric isn't considered nothing so profound?" but anyways I'm sure that will be answered before to long...probably by one of you negative types telling us how wrong we are....anyhow if you really want to tell us how much we suck you can find us in the general forum...you know the fun one...

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Leaving the ES forum? [Re: ]
      #1717749 - 08/17/03 06:01 AM

Ebony is called God's Blood for reasons I don't know. Maybe the Dwemer started it when they began to suspect it originated from the Heart of Lorkhan.

But Daedric is just ebony that had an extra process added to it. A lesser Daedra was tortured and bound to the ebony in unnatural smithing processes in Oblivion. What results is the Daedric material we all know and love.

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davethebrave
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1720248 - 08/18/03 01:55 AM

The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Three
Being blind the netchiman's wife wandered into a cave on her way to the domains of House Indoril. It so happened that this cave was a Dwemeri stronghold. The Dwemer spied the egg and captured the netchiman's wife. They bound her head to foot and brought her deep within the earth.

She heard one say, 'Go and make a simulacrum of her and place it back on the surface, for she has something akin to what we have and so the Velothi will covet it and notice if she is too long away.'

In the darkness, the netchiman's wife felt great knives try to cut her open. When the knives did not work, the Dwemer used solid sounds. When those did not work, great heat was brought to bear. Nothing was of any use, and the egg of Vivec remained safe within her.

A Dwemer said, 'Nothing is of any use. We must go and misinterpret this.'

Vivec felt that his mother was afraid, and so consoled her.


'The fire is mine: let it consume thee, And make a secret door At the altar of Padhome, In the House of Boet-hi-Ah Where we become safe And looked after.'

This old prayer made the netchiman's wife smile and begin such a deep sleep that when Dwemeri atronachs returned with cornered spheres and cut her apart she did not awake and died peacefully. Vivec was removed from her womb and placed within a magical glass for further study. To confound his captors, he channeled his essence into love, an emotion the Dwemer knew nothing about.

The egg said:


'Love is used not only as a constituent in moods and affairs, but also as the raw material from which relationships produce hour-later exasperations, regrettably fashioned restrictions, riddles laced with affections known only to the loving couple, and looks that linger too long. Love is also an often-used ingredient in some transparent verbal and nonverbal transactions where, eventually, it can sometimes be converted to a variety of true devotions, some of which yield tough, insoluble, and infusible unions. In its basic form, love supplies approximately thirteen draughts of all energy that is derived from relationships. Its role and value in society at large are controversial.'

The Dwemer were vexed at these words and tried to hide behind their power symbols. They sent their atronachs to remove the egg-image from their cave and place it within the simulacrum they had made of Vivec's mother.

A Dwemer said, 'We Dwemer are only aspirants to this that the Velothi have. They shall be our doom in this and the eight known worlds, NIRN, LHKAN, RKHET, THENDR, KYNRT, AKHAT, MHARA, and JHUNAL.' The secret to doom is within this Sermon.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: davethebrave]
      #1720933 - 08/18/03 06:46 AM

Lol why did you say that?

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: davethebrave]
      #1724288 - 08/19/03 06:19 AM

Quote:







A Dwemer said, 'We Dwemer are only aspirants to this that the Velothi have. They shall be our doom in this and the eight known worlds, NIRN, LHKAN, RKHET, THENDR, KYNRT, AKHAT, MHARA, and JHUNAL.' The secret to doom is within this Sermon.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.





....and I believe thats checkmate my good _fish....now it can die with dignity...

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1724339 - 08/19/03 06:30 AM

Your putting a theory in the hands of a propaganda book written by Vivec??? Well oke works for me, lets just forget about this, its not like where going to figure out what happend anyway

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1724469 - 08/19/03 07:04 AM

If you are quoting from Sermon 3 to support the notion that the Dwemer had a knowledge of other worlds, then I entirely agree with you.

The Dwemer made use of observatories to map and track the planets 'between' Oblivion. This information is further supported by the Elder Scrolls Cosmology.

However, this does not support the theory that the Dwemer departed Nirn for their selected destination of the moon Secunda.

Simply to agree that the Dwemer knew about the existence of the outer planets does not constitute evidence that they chose to travel to one of these realms, or even had the means to do so.


Fish - you disregard the 'Lessons Of Vivec' at your cost. Although the narrative parts may be inconsistent with wider historical sources, the Lessons contain revelational truths that are universal in their application. It is a lazy scholar that dismisses them as mere "propaganda". And ordinarily I do not regard you as lazy.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Nigedo]
      #1724535 - 08/19/03 07:21 AM

Ahh thanks,

its not that i don't read the 36 lessons of Vivec, there is a lot in there that i don't trust or simply said beleave. Ofcourse thats my POV there are things in there that i trust, but like you said just because the Dwemer knew it excisted doesn't mean much, altough they probably knew some way to get there, they could travel in the outer realms, doesn't make me beleave that all of them just whent there.

Besides seeing that this thread is about how the Dwemer dissapeared, and Vivec couldn't have talked to a Dwemer after they were gone, it doesn't really make anything clear about what happen the day they all dissapeared.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1743902 - 08/25/03 11:43 PM

I'll add something here: When you finish the MQ does not Azure state "the doomed Dwemer" this does not translate into a nice life on another plane but then can you trust her?

From what I've read there are 3 possibllites:

1. Kagrenec used the tools and made the race somekind of gods (but didnt the dwemer already have immortality from the heart - think i read that somewhere)

2. Kagrenec used the tools and destroyed his race.

3. Dagoth Ur used the tools and destroyed the Dwemer.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1743918 - 08/25/03 11:51 PM


1. could be, but the Dwemer were not inmortal, thats what they wanted to achieve by using the heart.

2. Very posible

3. Unlikely from all sources, including Dagoth Ur, he didn't get the tools untill after the Dwemer were gone. It could be that Nerevar did it though.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1743963 - 08/26/03 12:18 AM

1. The Dwemer were creating a god and I'm suer they had already tapped some of the hearts power for themselves I'm sure I read that somewhere.

3. Dagoth Ur was reported to be in the heart chamber with Nerevar when he confronted Dumac and Kagrenec. So it is posible.

4. In sermon Zero secret message:

RPDXGBWGHPZBXLOdZaZeXLdCIBNGJZereZDQOPhtHVVeKVPrCSa
NYyehBtCdInMZGaJRVeRrMGZuGCCIsHTZaLVeRFOrPZPKBPtORsKI
iONhXTtPKFgHTVOnolJRVJEeZVKWQIbHVCMNnoIivFiVMlYVCBbCVV
FoDIdInWaWIrLZVeVCMmewNIdGYIeKhTNtZTVoXVDKZt

read lower case backwards kinda says they are dead. So defo 2 or 3 I think. Dagoth Ur also states in game he doesn't know what happened to them so it kinda points at 2. The fact that onlt the dwemer dissapperared when the heart was tampered with also tends towards them already having tapped some power from it I think - regardless 2 does look like the most likely but 3 is still possible.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1743977 - 08/26/03 12:25 AM

I kinda rushed the end of the MQ recently and I'm going to go back up Redmountain and try and find some more books on this - does anybody know how to get the divine metaphysics and hanging gardens translated? That last Dwemer wont do it for me grrrr.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1743983 - 08/26/03 12:27 AM

Theory 2 is possible but unlikely since none of the sources even mention Dagoth Ur touching the heart before or during the few seconds that the Dwemer dissapeared. So its very unlikely, still possible, but when Dagoth Ur himself doesn't say he made the Dwemer vanish i find it weird to beleave he did it.

Edit: For locations where you can get translations plz go to spoilers forum, they know there, but a scholar in Gnisis and Balmora can help you with it.

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Edited by Enternall_fish (08/26/03 12:28 AM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1744055 - 08/26/03 12:55 AM

The Dagoth Ur theory is from Nerevar at Red Moutain (On the right in Vivec's little library) and states that the Dwemer already have immortality and they are now making a god to rule over the other gods. The mortally wounded Nerevar summons Azura whom instructs Dagoth Ur how to use the tools to destroy the dwarfs - so he may not remember this himself or care to tell you.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1744076 - 08/26/03 01:05 AM

Read that it does say that this part is werid..

Quote:

Dagoth-Ur slew Kagrenac and took the tools the Dwemer used to tap the power of the Heart. He went to his dying lord Nerevar and asked him what to do with these tools. And Nerevar summoned Azura again, and she showed them how to use the tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people.




Look at the red part, how can he slaughter a inmortal, unless their inmortal by age and disease that i can beleave.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1745080 - 08/26/03 07:26 AM

Yes - its a funny thing in fiction where immortality doesnt quite mean you are immortal.. They seemed to have tapped the heart to be ageless only, it seems, and not have divine powers as Vivec and co. Thus they have a link to the heart and they can be destroyed by it. This makes sense to me. I got the books translated (divine + egg) and the translater seems to think that the experiment would be dangerous if disturbed - Nerevar and co entering the chamber at the battle of red mountain. If Dagoth Ur did it or not they are deader then a dead stick in the dead halls of the dead.

I'll still work on this thou but I think thats about as far as it goes... Somebody said they found a new secret message in Vivec Sermons so it still has possibilties for work.

Edited by Woges (08/26/03 07:27 AM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1745905 - 08/26/03 11:57 AM

Quote:

Somebody said they found a new secret message...




Errm. That would be me, but I'm afraid it doesn't really contribute anything to the Dwemeri Displacement debate.

Actually, a very interesting contribution to this debate was made some time (perhaps a year) ago, when someone (Raptor-somebody, not Raptormeat though) pointed out that he found it surprising that the Dwemer were affected by the displacement event while no-one else around them was.

This is something that we generally take for granted when examining the event historically. But it does suggest that the Dwemer had some superphysical bond that meant that they alone were transported/ turned to dust (depending on your take).

That is to say that it was clearly not an effect that applied to, say, all mer within a given range of the event source, since that would have affected the Chimer too.

Whether this bond was derived from previous flirtation with the Heart is up for question, though.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Nigedo]
      #1746520 - 08/26/03 04:10 PM

My current theory is thus:

All the badness that is likely to have happened before Red Mountain starts up. During the Battle, Dumac and Nerevar face off. Bitter, Nerevar strikes down Dumac, and the Kagrenec issue flies into the air.

Possibly, Dagoth Ur, serving his master, chases down Kagrenec, and kills him, then wresting from his body the tools. Also possible is that Kagrenec himself activated the Heart.

Either way, the activation of the Heart triggers an unprepared displacement. Numidium was built for the purpose of helping the Dwemer to ascend permanently beyond Mundus. Whether this would lead to godhood or simply a new sense of spiritual awareness is unknown. However, Numidium would have tapped the full power of the Dwemer and Heart, and thus threatened the Daedric Princes.

The unfinished enchantments possibly snapped back at those it was intended to elevate, carrying them to another realm, but one where they are trapped for eternity, and their powers are useless. Yagrum was spared this because his link was severed while he was in Oblivion.

The Dwemer exist there to this day. Sometimes their essence pokes into this universe, in the form of Dwemer Spectres. Maddened by their captivity, or unable to determine what they see, they assault any living creature.

The ascension of the Dwemer triggered other flashback. When their souls left, their bodies were caught in a sudden absence of essence, and possibly the flare of energy ignited their flesh. The bodies were instantly consumed in a heatless flame that left their armor more or less unscathed.

Due to the Calling, the Dwemer outside of Vvardenfell were linked to this spiritual awareness that ascended that day. Thus they too perished.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1746687 - 08/26/03 05:59 PM

Quote:

Either way, the activation of the Heart triggers an unprepared displacement.



Agreed, in principle.

So, what you're saying is that 'the calling' is the link that the Dwemer shared that meant that this displacement only affected them?

Or was it perhaps a stipulation of the ritual performed upon the Heart?

The enchantments that were upon the Heart were performed by Kagrenac in any case, I'm pretty sure that we can establish that.

So, were these enchantments placed upon the Heart as a means of binding his race to the Heart in preparation for transcendance?

If this was the case, and Dagoth Ur broke their link with the Heart as Azura suggested, as depicted in Nerevar At Red Mountain, then wouldn't those enchantments have been so destroyed?

But we know that Kagrenac's enchantments remained upon the Heart, at least according to Vivec's testimony to the Nerevarine.

So, in order to get anywhere near to the bottom of this with certainty, I must ask "What was the purpose of Kagrenac's enchantments upon the Heart?"

Was his purpose direct 'ascendance' of his race through the power of the Heart, or was it the transcendance of his race through the power of Numidium powered by the Heart?

If it was the latter, then we may be able to dismiss all of the mythology surrounding who did what to the Heart directly and look at a possible Numidian incident as the cause of the displacement instead.

Just some other ideas, well questions mainly.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Nigedo]
      #1746847 - 08/26/03 08:10 PM

I think the whole Dwemer story line is very much based on Atlantis which is a fiction fav in many a writers repertoire. I think I've taken it as far as i can with as much as I've played Elderscrolls games - I can't remember if there is anything about them in daggerfall its been so long since I played that game.

Vivec mentions that there maybe books in the ruins at Dagoth Ur but I didn't find any in my mad rush up there. Is it worth me going back up there and looking for some books?

I still think they (Dwemer) must of had some kind of a link to the heart for it (displacement/death) to only affect them. I have yet to play much of the addons as yet also.

Secret message man... must admit not sure I got the new messages at all - no real context to them (need to read the sermons I think).

Todd Howard and chums like to do things in 3's also which is another writers "thing" and hench the 3 possible "happenings" I gave - if I find anything else to add I'll come back and add them, but, as for now thats all I have to offer.

Any reading suggestions chaps?

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1746855 - 08/26/03 08:15 PM

Oh 1 more thing.... anybody have a Dwemer timeline? Such as when they found the heart when they made the tools etc I think this would help with the theory of them tapping power from the heart. I think in Nerevar at red mountain Dumac says to Nerevar that the Dwemer have been using the heart for countless ages which points to them having power from it.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1746980 - 08/26/03 09:59 PM

You could always check the Timeline in the Imperial Library

If your going there, you should check the first Era especially.

The Dwemer probably did have some kind of link to the heart, but maybe not "the calling" is true according to several sources, so a link could have been the cause, the power of a god, are certainly powerful so maybe it was just tomuch for Dwemer that were supposed to be affected to handle, and threw the calling the rest got affected to, but it is most likely that Kragnec's enchantings on the heart affected his complete race IMO instead of anything else, and if thats the case, its very possible that the enchantments either had more then one purpose or that the Dwemer are still alive, seeing the enchantments are still there.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1747015 - 08/26/03 10:35 PM

Well now, the enchantments aren't still there as far as we know, because the Nerevarine destroyed them.

But that doesn't mean that the effect that they had on the Dwemer, at the time of the Battle ORM, was negated... or does it?

Oh, dear..

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Nigedo]
      #1747022 - 08/26/03 10:40 PM

Right ehmm didn't the Nerevarine come long after the dissapearance of the Dwemer? Maybe when the Nerevarine destroyed the heart, he destroyed the Dwemer to if they were still alive, but don't think so because Yagrum is still there, so maybe the enchantments had no effect on all Dwemer after all...

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1747080 - 08/26/03 11:16 PM

Hmm yes Yagrum is a paradox. If the Dwarfs had some bond to the heart for ageless life that means Yagrum will lose his semi-immortality at the end of the MQ - however the Dwarfs may have found a method that does not bind them directly to the heart while gaining said immortality. But, the sin of the Dwarfs was in making the 2nd Numidium not using the heart for other means - thus it is in trying to activate the 2nd Numidium that the Dwarfs perished/vanished I feel.

That leaves 2 possibilies:

1. They perished in its activation by failure or act of (a) god.

2. The 2nd Numidium and the Dwarfs have made it to oblivion.

However there are no accounts of a war in Oblivion as far as I know - but it is a timeless plane is it not?

Basically they are dead unless the scrolls team want to bring them back in a future game and therefore the mystery and open possibilites.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1747101 - 08/26/03 11:28 PM

Quote:

Maybe when the Nerevarine destroyed the heart, he destroyed the Dwemer to if they were still alive



Perhaps so.

It's possible that the 'Doom of the Dwemer' was actually the Nerevarine.

I'm still more keen to look at the role of Numidium in all of this though.

BTW, Woges, the Dwemer were responsible for the First Numidium (Anumidum), Dagoth Ur was responsible for the Second Numidium (Akulakhan). The first Numidium did not (as far as we know) get displaced with the Dwemer. Records show that it later passed into the hands of Tiber Septim, either in pieces or as a whole gift from the Tribunal.

Check this thread for a timeline on Numidium.


Anyways, the primary purpose that Kagrenac had for the Heart IMO was to activate, or I think it would be better to say 'complete' the Numidium.

Just to bring it back into consciousness here is the infamous quote on this subject from Xal, the Human Maruhkati;


"Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt*. He is also called the divine skin.

He was meant to be used many times by our kind** to transcend the Gray Maybe.


The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects. Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot- he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater.

Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world."
___________________________

* Gestalt (The American Heritage Dictionary): A configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts.

** Humans.. Maruhkati.. or mortals?


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Edited by Nigedo (08/26/03 11:58 PM)

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_Jesus_
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Nigedo]
      #1747124 - 08/26/03 11:46 PM

nigedo, you always have one little bit too much information too make your posts readable

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: _Jesus_]
      #1747128 - 08/26/03 11:48 PM

LOL. Which bit was that? You should check out some of B's old posts..


This is nothing compared to that, I assure you.


Edit: Is that better?

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Edited by Nigedo (08/26/03 11:59 PM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Nigedo]
      #1747170 - 08/27/03 12:13 AM

Ahhh so the first Numidium is the one from Daggerfall? I thought that was another one and the fact that Vivec says second Numidium was an error on BS part - heh trying to be alittle too cocky.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1747179 - 08/27/03 12:18 AM

Still the sin couild be in trying to make this "thing" a conscious being or true new god could it not? It being in Daggerfall (and used by the first Tiber) means the outlook is looking bleaker for the dwarfs - the secret message is looking more true I believe.

I've got 1/2 an hour free at work I'll take a look at that timeline cheers.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1747195 - 08/27/03 12:30 AM

If i got your post right, then you are right about the sin part, their sin was wanting to make themselves Gods, and created the Brash God, the first Numiden.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1747217 - 08/27/03 12:42 AM

Thanks for the info Nigedo.

In making the "first" (heh) Numidium is a sin - but its activation as a new conscious being is the sin we are taking about in Morrowind (agreed).

I knew of the choices at the end of daggerfall - need to look that up now - Warp of the West I had a little knowledge of (not much sense of though) - and now warp of the east sheesh.

Now my girl has just texted me at work to say she has found a quest to get a multi-storage soulgem - heh Mantela? Now that would really make things confusing (don't believe it is before ppl go of on 1).

Ahhh work bbl.


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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1750069 - 08/28/03 01:16 AM

There must have been some magicall link threw the heart, but nessecaraly to the Dwemer, but probably to whom ever the user wanted it to be used. I thought of this just a second ago, it could be completly wrong but still

Dagoth Ur, used the Profane tools and made him and his house Inmortal right? They returned after a lot of years after they were all gone. Now if this is true, that would mean that Dagoth Ur managed to enchant the heart in one way to affect everybody in his own House, and not the rest of the Chimer, wich would mean that Kragnec could have choicen any person he would have wanted to come along with him to god hood, and who not. Just a theory,

and sorry if this doesn't make any sence im really off right now... Can't seem to think anymore school is blocking my brains.



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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1750275 - 08/28/03 02:32 AM

Nope thats fine - its quite possible that the dwarves have created their very own dragon break. The whole thing is an open ended mystery at the moment - maybe not even written yet? Maybe Todd Howard just doesn't like stumpys and doesn't wish for them to be in his world.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1751541 - 08/28/03 11:11 AM

Well perhaps each person who wants to be immortalised has to have it doen personally at the Heart. After all, it is said by Nerevar and DUmanc thast the Dwemer worship Lorkahn's Heart, and since Dagoth's immortal followers seem to be (him and) the Ash Vampires, all of whom are heartwights and have been ritually bonded to it as said by Vivec, then amybe all the Dwemer underwent a bonding at Red Moutnain to the Heart.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Olorin_TLA]
      #1751997 - 08/28/03 03:32 PM

Perhaps this explains the Calling. Kagrenec cast an enchantment using the Heart which linked all of his people to the Heart, and thus to one another. It was not as intimate as the link of House Dagoth, of necessity, but still made them into a gestalt mind. Thus, when the recoil of what happened at Red Mountain struck out, every member of the Dwemer currently present in Mundus was afflicted.

The tale of stolen immortality was an artistic twist. They stole some power, and possibly live longer thanks to it, but I doubt they were immortal. Their more stable lives probabyl afforded better living conditions, so the Chimer saw very few Dwemer die, and some writer took that to mean the Dwemer were immortal.

And Yagrum's survival was thanks to Corpus, which made him essentially immortal.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1752395 - 08/28/03 09:33 PM

Well i can see how the Dwemer were all linked but how about House Dagoth? There must have been some enchantments on the heart that would make everybody that the user wanted to, feel the power of the heart, afterall only the Tribunal were affected when they used and it, and all of House Dagoth when he used it, if everybody needed to use the heart seperatly that would really weird, thousands of Dwemer would have had to go inside the Heart Chamber and connect themselves to it.

So i think that threw the enchantments on the heart the wielder of the Profane Tools, can actually select some of the people he/she wants to share the heart with.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1752537 - 08/28/03 11:08 PM

"thousands of Dwemer would have had to go inside the Heart Chamber and connect themselves to it. "

I think the Dwemer had plenty of time to do this, however, Kagrenac had much more knowledge of the heart then anybody else (before or after his death) and could have found other ways of using it.

Also the last dwarf states that he roamed for thousands(?) of years looking for another of his race (before getting corprus). If thats not immortality then its a huge life-span.

Vivec also gets a form of the calling having gained power from the heart so surely this power is linked to the heart, no?

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1752724 - 08/29/03 12:58 AM

To qoute Yagrum-Bagarn

"Hmm.... I cannot say what happened. I was not there to observe. I was in an Outer Realm at the time, and when I came back, my people were gone. I left Red Mountain, wandering Tamriel for years, searching our deserted colonies, looking for a survivor or an explanation. Then, a long, long time ago, I returned to Red Mountain, still looking for answers. Instead, I found corprus disease, and I have been here ever since. I have theories, if you are interested."

he searched for years, this doesn't really indicate anything about their life span.

Quote:

I think the Dwemer had plenty of time to do this, however, Kagrenac had much more knowledge of the heart then anybody else (before or after his death) and could have found other ways of using it.




How about House Dagoth then? They clearly didn't have the time or the chance for all of them to go inside.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1752796 - 08/29/03 01:38 AM

How many people in house Dagoth are immortal? Ur and some of his ash vampires i thought and the rest have some form of corprus through dream sendings and blight storms (same as ash vampires I believe). That transforms them into a being related to their initial power - ie weak become the deformed things and powerful beings rise to being ash vampires. Or are we thinking of a different point in time here?

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1752807 - 08/29/03 01:44 AM

Where not thinking different points in time, but a lot of Dagoth Ur's servant are respawned threw the heart, so that means a lot are connected, and most of them are probably as old as Dagoth Ur himself, serving House dagoth from before the war of the first council.

Not sure though.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1753048 - 08/29/03 04:08 AM

If they are the orginal House servants I would say the long exposure to the heart has risen them (like Dagoth Ur), or, Dagoth Ur has used the heart to rise them.

Either way its the power of the heart thats doing all this and its destruction may have other consequences - such as the doom of the Dwemer if they are not already dead (the other Dwemer techs said the plan was risky and the leaving behind of the tools maybe this). The first Numidium was made with the hearts power thus are there any consequences for that also? If not then power can be taken from the heart while not still be bounded to it (thus no risks for the Dwemer).

Its quite amazing how all posiblities have a work around here, the heart is a paradoxial object - which make sense as its the heart of a trickster god.

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Olorin_TLA
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1753647 - 08/29/03 08:17 AM

Only people in House dagoth who are said to ahve bonded witht the Heart, and who can be ressurected usuing its power, are Dogoth Ur himself and his 7 Ash Vampire kin.

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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1753660 - 08/29/03 08:30 AM

I find it interesting that both the Dwemer and House Dagoth share a similar ability to form a gestalt mind. Call it 'The Calling' or call it 'Sending to the Blood of the Sixth House' - it seems to share a remarkable similarity.
I have checked the timelines and can find no record of when the Dwemer first discovered Lorkhan's Heart so, presumably, it must have occured sometime in the Merethic era or very early in the 1st. Isn't it possible that Kegnarec placed a form of enchantment that bound the minds of the Dwemer - The Calling. Later, after the Event had occured, Dagoth Ur used the same enchantment to draw members of House Dagoth to him?

In fact, the more I read of this thread the more sure I am that my pet theory ( Azura zapping the Dwemer off to a plane/dimension where time runs differently) is wrong. I am tending more towards some form of Temporal Displacement caused by the premature/incorrect activation of the Numidium. IIRC, the two times we suspect the Numidium has been activated it caused some for of time-warp.Perhaps the very act of powering up the Brass God is what causes this to happen.
If that is the case, if it was activated at Red Mountain with the full power of Lorkhan's Heart behind it, could it have seized the gestalt mind of the Dwemer and warped them instead of creating an externalised warp as it later did?

Edit: Spelling gremlins again

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Edited by OverrideB1 (08/29/03 08:43 AM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1753806 - 08/29/03 09:40 AM

Don't forget to read one of the biggest dwarf/dwemer discussion threads, with contributions from developers characters..:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tribgen&Number=767738&fpart=&PHPSESSID=

Note there are more than 20 pages..

Kalniel

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1753814 - 08/29/03 09:42 AM

The displacement theory being possible and the same as the mage in Gnisis. Very possible I think as Kagrenac seems to be no fool

I was wondering if Kagrenac was from Soren "Kierkegaard" the philosopher - my girl says I maybe pushing it a bit with this but you never know.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1753852 - 08/29/03 09:57 AM

What do I do with Kagrenac's Plans (Book) anyway? Yep just took that trip up Red Mountain.

Edited by Woges (08/29/03 09:57 AM)

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1754131 - 08/29/03 11:47 AM

They're part of the "back door" MQ. With that and his journal you can get Yagrum to activate the inactive Wraithguard.

My belief is that Kagrenec was not fully prepared, but close. Numidium was designed to elevate the Dwemer, and when things seemed at the end, Kagrenec activated the Heart in an attempt to save his race from annihilation, because, despite his drive to ambition which caused the war, he still loved his people. The incomplete enchantments succeded in removing the Dwemer from Mundus, but the elevation was not strong enough to fully lift them beyond.

Also, on House Dagoth:
Dagoth Ur and his comrades were struck fatal blows beneath Red Mountain. They fled beneath, and fell almost dead. The activation of the Heart effected their failing bodies, and they slept, rather than died. After many arrivals and departures of the Tribunal, which most likely enhanced the powers sent forth from the Heart, Dagoth Ur awoke. The strongest of the 8, he had dreamt the deepest, and designed the ritual which bound him and his brothers directly to the Heart. Their binding created Corpus, which gave them power, and allowed them to spread it among their followers.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1755108 - 08/29/03 10:35 PM

"Numidium was designed to elevate the Dwemer, and when things seemed at the end, Kagrenec activated the Heart in an attempt to save his race from annihilation, because, despite his drive to ambition which caused the war, he still loved his people."

We are not sure of Kagrenac's plans or what he thought I feel. There is rather little info on this Dwemer. Vivec paints the Dwemer picture and he is a poet and a liar (I think). I feel he is the most egotistic of the Tribunal (most visable and has rather taken a liking to his subjects (as subjects)) and would not want to blacken his name in any way. Thus making the Dwemer seem rather evil and without compassion and I do not see Yagrim as this.

I need to go and complete the Mournhold quest to get any futher with this i think. Being the the books on Dagoth Ur are just a MQ work around if you fancy giving Vivec the chop.

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Archaonuk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1756609 - 08/30/03 10:09 AM

My Theory is they are not gone and they maybe come back maybe they dont want to the way i see it they have gone from the known world.The battle was turning so they had a plan B as the war started very fast most of them off of Vvardenfell may not have known of the war. So if they got beaten they could just dissapear to some place where the gods cant find them.They could come back with weapons 1000s of years head but i dont see that happening some how. Anyhow its my Theory go on take shoots at it

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Archaonuk]
      #1756625 - 08/30/03 10:19 AM

You're right. The Dwemer wished to escape Mundus, and once doing so are unlikely to wish to return.

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Olorin_TLA
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1756637 - 08/30/03 10:26 AM

All that's written about them and by them syas they want to break free of the "Earthbones": the laws of nature. By gaining immortality, and you could say the Calling ability too, as it negates the need for proximity in communication and more, they'd already begun; Anumidian was to finish it for them. Anyway, seeing as they were on the road to their goal, bending nature's laws, one of their achievements coud well have been to, in a way, "seperate" themselves partially from the planes; not in the way they wanted, but in a slight manner which meant that gods such as Vivec can't detect them (because Yagrum's not far away!) because they've "changed" so that they are alien to the planes and world.

I still hold that Kagrenac made a mistake at Red Moountian, because Ashlander reprots say the Dwemer turn to dust/ash, there are ash piles where Dwemer would have lived under Mounrhold, and in Divine Metaphyscis there are two diagrams: one shows proper use of Keenin and Sunder on the Heart, resulting in the Dwemer's hopes being fulfilled, the other show what would happpen i a mistake was made regarding the use of thetools on the Heart, which shows the figure in the picture being burnt away into nothingness...ahses...

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Archaonuk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Olorin_TLA]
      #1756982 - 08/30/03 01:17 PM

Say u wanted to make ur enemies to think ur gone dead or so on cos of some thing of ur own doing. And if u wanted them to think that more u have things for them to find to sport that theory would that not be a great escape maybe having one more thing to back it up maybe one of their own kin

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Archaonuk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Olorin_TLA]
      #1756984 - 08/30/03 01:19 PM

And the ash thing maybe only the body can go and not weapons and so on it would add to the they are all dead Theory that the others so much wanted to hear

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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1757398 - 08/30/03 06:21 PM

Thanks for the linky-clicky thing Kalniel - some very interesting points made in that thread even though it is yea long
Going to go and sift through the quick notes I made - especially on the points posted by Lord Fyr - on the titbits that both support and don't support my shiney new theory

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Archaonuk]
      #1757399 - 08/30/03 06:21 PM

If the Dwemer dissapeared on purpose at that moment, they were insane, Kragnec oke if i were him id do the same, dissapear, but the rest of the Dwemer would have been insane to do that, they were winning the war against the Chimer.

That Dumac and Kragnec would have died during the battle would have been tobad, but no reason for all the Dwemer to willingly follow them to a other dimension, so unless the Dwemer were forced into moving with them, threw the Heart of Lorkhan or the Calling wich could very well be true i don't see them moving away to a other dimension.

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Manu
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1757456 - 08/30/03 06:53 PM

Quote:

Now my girl has just texted me at work to say she has found a quest to get a multi-storage soulgem - heh Mantela? Now that would really make things confusing (don't believe it is before ppl go of on 1).

Ahhh work bbl.





That's Azura's star - a reusable soulgem, ble to hold any soul, apparently no matter how powerfull - it can hold thos of Vivec or Almalexia. No direct link with Numidium

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1757523 - 08/30/03 07:56 PM

Quote:

If the Dwemer dissapeared on purpose at that moment, they were insane, Kragnec oke if i were him id do the same, dissapear, but the rest of the Dwemer would have been insane to do that, they were winning the war against the Chimer.




How do we know that? From the one viewpoint which I believe offers the best view of the tactical situation, the Battle of Red Mountain, a large portion of the Dwemer army was pinned on an open field by the Chimer. The result would be a slaughterhouse. Kagrenec loved his people. Such suffering would be translated throughout the entire gestalt. Probably driven mad by this pain, and the fall of Dumac, his king, he tried to stop the killing the only way he could think of: flight.

Since already the Dwemer were trapped in Red Mountain, the only possible retreat was to another dimension. Only Numidium could cause such a displacement, so he activated the enchantments in an effort to save his race from the horrid anguish he must have been feeling, and which all must have felt.

You must understand the Dwemer did not worship the Heart. They worshipped the harnessing of its power and their own genius, and valued their lives greatly. Such loss of life would push any over the edge.

And before you mention earlier wars, the gestalt was most likely hardened by then, or not fully formed, as they were still trying to understand the Heart.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1757605 - 08/30/03 08:43 PM

Quote:


How do we know that? From the one viewpoint which I believe offers the best view of the tactical situation, the Battle of Red Mountain, a large portion of the Dwemer army was pinned on an open field by the Chimer. The result would be a slaughterhouse. Kagrenec loved his people. Such suffering would be translated throughout the entire gestalt. Probably driven mad by this pain, and the fall of Dumac, his king, he tried to stop the killing the only way he could think of: flight.





Several sources say that the Dwemer were winning the war when they dissapeared, i never heard they were losing where did you get that?

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Archaonuk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1757826 - 08/31/03 12:13 AM

They had been pulled out and pinned down in a battle that happen and a commando attack happen killing the Dwemer king i think. This could have been when they started plan B.

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Archaonuk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Archaonuk]
      #1757830 - 08/31/03 12:15 AM

My other Theory is they were some how pulled into the Heart and now it has been taken out they could be coming back.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1759716 - 09/01/03 01:13 AM

What about the five songs of King Wulfharth?

"And Lorkhan (for that is what they called Shor in Resdayn) said: "I do not wreak vengeance on the Dwarves for the reasons that the Tribunal might believe I do. Nevertheless, it is true that they will die by my hand, and any whoever should side with them."

Or is this a bad source? Still... the Dwemer ash does point to disintegration which was many a mages favorite spell in daggerfall.

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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1759743 - 09/01/03 01:23 AM

What is interesting is that the piles of ash only occur in one place, not in any of the other ruins. Perhaps a different "disaster" struck the ruins under Mournhold, before the "disaster" at Red Mountain. Perhaps the ruins at Mournhold are much much older than any of the other ruins - the whole style is different; more open, different style doors, air ventilation systems - all things seen in no other ruin. Maybe some unspecified disaster struck this city (which has hallmarks of being someplace very important, what with the decoration and all) which led the Dwemer to build any future cities in a different, more defendable style. Narrower corridoors, heavy - almost airlock like - doors, steep and narrow stairways; these are all indicative of British castles of the 13th & 14th century which were built for defensive purposes rather than large and open palaces which were not.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1759893 - 09/01/03 02:37 AM

I heard on several places, that the ruins in mournhold were the capitol city of the Dwemer, that would explain the different architecture, it could also be that the Dwemer stronghold there collapsed immidiatly after the dissapearance, maybe somebody was working on it and it colapsed??? The ruins on Vvardenfell were always open and the dust was blown away, picked up, walked threw wich made that dissapear

Don't know but could be..

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Archaonuk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1760055 - 09/01/03 03:55 AM

Who says that the dwemer forced into going by the king who was killed i think so who would have taken out maybe they dissapeared even if they were winning at the time. The Dwemer had lost the main castle to the commando team that got in when the army was away.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Archaonuk]
      #1760117 - 09/01/03 04:28 AM

It is best to be wary of the Wulfarth version. That is an oral tradition, and has been so for several centuries. Much of the meaning has probably shifted since that time.

Also, nobody has been in the Dwemer ruins beneath Mournhold since the disaster. The ash left by the cataclysm that destroyed them would not have been disturbed as it was on Vvardenfell, where you can probably bet about two dozen adventurers have already traipsed through each ash pile.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1760276 - 09/01/03 05:56 AM

"Since already the Dwemer were trapped in Red Mountain, the only possible retreat was to another dimension. Only Numidium could cause such a displacement, so he activated the enchantments in an effort to save his race from the horrid anguish he must have been feeling, and which all must have felt."

So whats your opinion on what happened?

You know more of this then I, I'm sure. From what you are saying I'm picking up that Kagrenac tried to activate Numidium to get his race transported to a safe place - but couldn't they win the battle by using The Brass God?

The fact that the Numidium didn't go with them indicates an error or was it just a tool (or are we using Terminator like time travel theory here - "nothing metal would go")?

I'm going to stick with my "they based this on Atlantis" theory - that the Dwemer have been destroyed by there own technology or by act of god which ever you prefer.

Bringing them back you'd loose too much of the elderscrolls "historic mystery" as they would bring great knowledge and facts with them. Unless they (BS) made them lose their memory or some such thing - and I don't believe that would satisfy anybody (including the devs).

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1761545 - 09/01/03 05:07 PM

Numidium wouldn't have ascended. It had no life, and so could not become more than a channeling device.

The Dwemer intended to use the concentrated power of the Heart of Lorkhan, focused by Numidium, to ascend to a higher plane of existence. Maybe they intended to become gods, or maybe they merely wished to obtain a state they could only glimpse while on Mundus. Numidium was, in a sense, a stepping stool. It need to be based in both Mundus, in it's physical form as a massive golem, and in the higher realms as the Brass God.

Kagrenec attempted to activate it before the stool was complete. I believe the best metaphor here is that "the stool wobbled." The incomplete metaphysical ladder gave beneath the Dwemer, and dropped them into a dimension between here and their destination. Or possibly they began the ascension, but Nerevar's interference stole the support of Numidium before they could reach the fullness of their climb.

Either way, I believe the Dwemer are trapped, or were trapped, in a dimension that is undefinable, and is thus impervious to the minds of the Dwemer.

And on the Atlantis theory: You're probably right. But the story was expanded to make it seem a little more factual.

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Olorin_TLA
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1762803 - 09/02/03 05:45 AM

But they coul;d ahve won the Battle if Numidian was ready for use, thus giving Kagrneac better conditions to elevate his race. If he could have activated Numidian rather than trying himself to elevate his race, he would have done so.

Since Numidian is complete for Tiber Septim (and Daggerfall) however...it would seem to me that Kagrenac HAD compelted Numidian...the ateempt at activation was what went wrong, rathe than the attempt at elevation.

Maybe a technicality, but allows more room for possiblities other than a misjudged elevation attempt.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Olorin_TLA]
      #1763538 - 09/02/03 10:45 AM

You're a little off on some facts.

I do not refer to the physical creation, I refer to the bonds that linked the Golden Tones to Numidium. If they had not been properly attuned, the power would have gone awry.

Also, Tiber Septim did not use Numidium for the same reasons or with the same power source as the Dwemer did. It was, allegedly, powered by the heart of his battlemage. And rather than elevating him to a new plane of existence, although it might explain his odd longevity and presence as a Divine, he used it as a massive battering ram, since no primitive army can really fight a golem that just crushed a catapult with it's small toe.

The links between the Heart and Numidium were, I believe, meant for one purpose, and one purpose only: ascension. Attempting to use it for any other means when dealing with a source of power as great as the Heart of Lorkhan would have been catastrophic. Which leads to the interesting possibility that Kagrenec might have activated Numidium to fight, but the bonds broke, and the backfire hit the Dwemer in the metaphysical face.

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Edited by TSBasilisk (09/02/03 10:48 AM)

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1764463 - 09/02/03 10:40 PM

Well you can be pretty sure that Numiden wasn't only created to make the Dwemer gods, or move them to a other plane of existence, afterall Dagoth Ur seems to know what he is doing, and he wants to use Numidem II as a weapon.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1765031 - 09/03/03 03:39 AM

Dagoth Ur wants to conquer Mundus with Anumidium. However, Anumidium was built with the express purpose of conquering Vvardenfell by a mer who has spent centuries dreaming the dreams of the Heart, learning about it, and has bound himself to the Heart as a Heartwight. Compared to Dagoth Ur, Kagrenec was groping in the dark.

The Dwemer didn't care about the Gray Maybe anymore. They wanted to move beyond it. Building a god just to conquer a land they wanted to get out of would have been pointless to the extreme.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1767550 - 09/04/03 07:19 AM

The Dwarves are dead, end of story. There are a couple *theories* as to exactly what destroyed them. My personal favorite is that all Dwemer had been bound to the Heart without their knowing by Kagrenac thru either some sort of brainwashing or possibly a trinket distributed to all Dwemer, sort of like a magic dogtag. Dagoth Ur, evidence showing, was the only person who knew of the power and rituals concerned other than Kagrenac and his associates. Luck would have it that it was Dagoth Ur and Nerevar who confronted Dumac and Kagrenac in the Heart Chamber. But I think the true "coincidence" is that Nerevar and Dumac both mortally wounded each other and only Dagoth Ur and Kagrenac are left standing. I think up until this point Dagoth Ur and Kagrenac are on each other's side except Voryn Dagoth is holding teh proverbial "Ace up his sleeve". When Kagrenac hands the Tools over to Dagoth Ur to bind his House to the Heart (hence the 6th House Amulets or Heart amulets on all Sixth House NPCs) he adds a part to the ritual that instantly wipes them off the face of Nirn. This *theory* however has plenty of holes in it that could lead to the possibility that the Dwemer are inhabiting another Plane of Dimension somewhere, but I lend very little chance to the possibility of them just "hiding out" somewhere on Nirn. Whatever did happen was instantaneous and catastrophic in nature. This is something all of the sources do mention. If you want to hear my theory in detail with references just send me a PM.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1767729 - 09/04/03 08:14 AM

...in any case they went a whole lot easier than this post will...I'm sure of that...also it's a semi-well known fact that theres more than just Nirn in their celestial bodies...yes I did make a mistake: I said Secunda when in fact I meant the other moon...the reddish-haze one...
I'm sure I'll catch he ll just for posting to this...

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zingbat
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1767900 - 09/04/03 09:42 AM

There are many possibilities. Another version would be that Kagrenac had a plan to salvage his entire race in case of defeat in war. There is only one way Dunmac and the Nerevarine could have been face to face with each other and that would be the Nerevarine has conquered Dunmac fortress and Dunmac was at his mercy. So the Nerevarine killed him and itimidated Kagrenac to show him the powers of the harth. Maybe to be shure there wasnt any trick about it the Nerevarine commanded Dagoth Uhr to operate the tools while Kagrenac gave the orders. But since Kagrenac was the smart guy in there he could very well trick everyone, kill Dagoth Uhr and make all Dwemers be magically transported to some other place. Be it another continent shielded from observation or another dimension or another plane.
Or Kagrenac could have just created another world with the divine powers of the heart at his disposal and made every Dwemer to be teleported there.

And since we are thinking of possibilities, heres another to what happens next. Dagoth Uhr is killed while operating the heart under Kagrenac instructions. The Dwarves gone but there is still hope in the person of another smart guy called Sotha Sill. He found out by himself how to unleash the power for himself. Nerevar would be the natural owner of the power so he has to be killed. Almalexia (never liked the bitch) his the tickster and convinces Vivec and Sotha Sill that it would be better to murderer Nerevar and divide the power with the three. They all agree and the Nerevar is murdered. Almalexia now wants the power just to herself. She kills Sotha Sill (the less visible) and some how manages to control Vivec because he is too visible to be killed.

Well, this is just one possibility in many. Better wait for TES4 and confirm.

I will never forguive the devs if they dont reveal this mistery.


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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: zingbat]
      #1768478 - 09/04/03 03:54 PM

Nerevar didn't conquer the citadel. Most of the Dwemer army was lured into battled on the open field. While engaged there, Nerevar and his team managed to sneak into the facility. Once inside, they made their way to the Heart Chamber, and there Nerevar and Dumac duked it out while Kagrenec and Dagoth Ur did something.

Also, Dagoth Ur was not bound to the Heart until centuries after the destruction of the Dwemer.

And on the Nerevar murder thing: I rather doubt it. I believe that over time the Ashlanders grew so hateful of the Great Houses for disregarding Nerevar's pledge, that they started to theorize it was the fault of the Tribunal, as they were one of the groups that persecuted them. More likely is that Nerevar was wounded in battle.

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Edited by TSBasilisk (09/04/03 03:56 PM)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1769311 - 09/05/03 03:58 AM

Quote:


Also, Dagoth Ur was not bound to the Heart until centuries after the destruction of the Dwemer.





Let's see proof...

There is no mention of when Dagoth Ur actually bound himself to the Heart. It's far more likely that he conducted the ritual in secret and this is why the Chimer army was unable to kill Dagoth Ur when they came to retrieve the Tools.

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Olorin_TLA
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1769435 - 09/05/03 04:59 AM

I agree. the question rmeains - how oin so short a ime did he become corrupted and elarn to use the tools? The ehart ight be talking to him...I'd LOVE to have seen it corrupt the Nerevarine.

Was Dagoth Ur called Dagoth Ur or Voryn Dagoth in the Dwemer/Chimer War? Or both?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Olorin_TLA]
      #1770044 - 09/05/03 09:51 AM

I imagine he was commonly called Dagoth Ur formally, and Voryn informally.

Dagoth Ur was a true friend of Nerevar. In EVERY account, except for the obvious propaganda, Dagoth Ur was sworn to watch over the Profane Tools by Nerevar. Since Dagoth was his top man, he did this faithfully. The corruption caused by the tools was most likely in the form of confusion. The emanations from the Heart and vapors from the lava unsettled him for a time. When either the Tribunal or Nerevar returned, he refused to surrender the Tools to any save Nerevar. Nerevar had likely returned, and believing Dagoth irreparably lost, struck him. Then Dagoth essentially died.

The proof that Dagoth Ur did not use the Tools for himself at first is from Vivec's own lips. Had Dagoth Ur truly used them for his own advantage, he would never have gotten off that topic, but he never mentioned it.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1770871 - 09/05/03 05:54 PM

Ur is the Assyrian word for "head" but more specifically "capital" so we can assume it's used here as a title like "King"

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TSBasilisk
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1771248 - 09/06/03 12:30 AM

Hadn't realized that. From what I'd thought, his name was Voryn Ur...

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Olorin_TLA]
      #1771516 - 09/06/03 03:42 AM

Quote:

Was Dagoth Ur called Dagoth Ur or Voryn Dagoth in the Dwemer/Chimer War? Or both?




Dagoth Ur his complete name is Dagoth Voryn Ur

Dagoth (House Name) Voryn (First Name) Ur (Family Name)

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1771775 - 09/06/03 05:56 AM

Incorrect Fish. A House name and Family name are one and the same. Voryn is the name that was bestowed upon him at birth. Ur is a title he bestowed upon himself. We know this from how he signs his name on the invitation you find at Illinubi... Lord Voryn Dagoth. Not Lord Voryn Dagoth Ur. So the word "Lord" when he signed his name on the invitation was probably in place of the word "Ur". They are probably interchangeable.

Ur=Lord

'nuff said.

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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1774012 - 09/07/03 06:52 AM

Hmm Dagoth ur is an anagram of "A God Hurt"

but also "A Turd Hog" wonder if that means anything?

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: ]
      #1775202 - 09/07/03 07:14 PM

To Nael

I just read something in a other thread, about Dagoth calling Neverar, Nerevar Indoril well other people call him Indoril Nerevar. Maybe he does the same to himself, because Voryn whe both agreed is his name, and everything that still says House Name and First name always has House Name first.

For Example in the poison song series, they have a lot of

Indoril- a lot of names forget them
Dagoth-acra
Dagoth-Tynareth

That would mean House name is first, first name is second. In that case Dagoth Ur, just calls it the other way around.



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OverrideB1
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1775220 - 09/07/03 07:43 PM

Perhaps that was the style within House Dagoth? Name, House, instead of House, Name s was more normal.
You could be right about Ur being a title rather than a name, it might belong to the same order of name-parts as Muthsera, Serjo, Sedura, etc. That would also be consistant with House Dagoth reversing the order of names so, instead of Title/House/Name we'd get Name/House/Title. Or perhaps this is an effect of his exposure to the Heart

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Enternall_fish
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Re: The Dwarves Theory [Re: OverrideB1]
      #1775222 - 09/07/03 07:50 PM

The weird part is that other members off House Dagoth or first called Dagoth then name, so why would Dagoth Ur be any different.

Every Dagoth you meet in Morrowind, is called Dagoth Name not Name Dagoth, in the poison song they are called Dagoth-name to, Dagoth Ur is either a exeption or something else i can't think off right now.


Ohh yeah and their is a huge chance that Ur means lord, i don't remember where exactly i read it, but somewere on this site probably in the Vampire werewolve or religion section, that Ur meant Lord.

Now im not saying thats what it means, but there is a huge chance that Bethesda used existing names and title's that are hardly known or used anymore, and put them in their game. Not saying thats the case, but it could be and in this particulair case Ur means Lord, wich would make it something like

Dagoth / House Name Voryn / First name Ur / Lord of the House

or Voryn Dagoth Ur, something like that.

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