The Elder Scrolls Forums

Elder Scrolls Series >> Elder Scrolls

Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)
Archived User Account

Some Clarity of the Creation myth?
      #2018772 - 12/02/03 02:09 PM

Ok, i have done some thinking and have come up with a conflict in the creation of Nirn. I read somewhere that Nirn was created when 12 planets (I may be mistaken) were destroyed and all of the remnants of these planets formed Nirn, thus giving it the diversity of it's races there. I would like to know where this is stated, I know I read it somewhere b4, If any of you kind scholars can direk me to it, I would be most greatfull.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2018792 - 12/02/03 02:16 PM

That's the account given in the Ayleid Creation Myth, as described in the 'The Annotated Anuad'.

"[Anu] attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel."

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2018812 - 12/02/03 02:22 PM

thanks so very much, I knew I wasn't going crazy and have read it before, personaly, even if it is not the true creation myth, it was hair-raising just to read the first time I did. btw, where would this book be located in-game, red mountian region?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2018835 - 12/02/03 02:28 PM

On the world of Nirn, all was chaos. The only survivors of the twelve worlds of Creation were the Ehlnofey and the Hist.

ok, if the Ehlnofey created mer and men, and the hist created the argonians, then what event created the Sload, Goblins, Akvari, and the rest of the non-men/mer races. Forgive my naivness on the subject, but I am trying to fit 'how it all REALLY began with the other races, what accounts of these 12 planets and their respective races'.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2018842 - 12/02/03 02:30 PM

Quote:

where would this book be located in-game, red mountian region?



No idea off the top of my head. You can check it out online by just clicking the highlighted text link in the post above.


--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Edited by Nigedo (12/02/03 03:16 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2018885 - 12/02/03 02:43 PM

ok, it gives a sort of an outline, but I am still abit confuzed about the OTHER races not mentioned, could it be that the other distinct races be natives of the origional planet where Nirn was created? If not, then I apologize for being naive on the subject.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
phil_t
Curate

Reged: 09/26/02
Posts: 422
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2018907 - 12/02/03 02:49 PM

I believe part of the problem here is that you are working from the Ayleid Creation Myth - note that it comes from the Ayleids of Tamriel, who were likely not worried about the Sload, Akavirians or anyone else for that matter. There was no reason for the Ayleid (or any other Tamrielic creation myths) to mention them - hence there is no known lore about their creation

Phil

--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: phil_t]
      #2018938 - 12/02/03 02:59 PM

well, thanks, and it leads me to believe that this was intended by the Creators of TES to leave it a mystery, but if such lore books did come out, I would love to read it. I was guessing that there was more info on the OTHER races and assumed that there was actual books on the subject, once again, thanks to both of you.

(ahhhhhhh..... I really wish that there was, I really thought there was books on this, wether it was a myth or factual information, btw you dean guys rock, i love to see the debates on lore in TES.)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2019050 - 12/02/03 03:32 PM

Quote:

ok, if the Ehlnofey created mer and men, and the hist created the argonians, then what event created the Sload, Goblins, Akvari, and the rest of the non-men/mer races. Forgive my naivness on the subject, but I am trying to fit 'how it all REALLY began with the other races, what accounts of these 12 planets and their respective races'.



This is a fair question. I think that the answer is that races other than men and mer, like sload, goblins and denizens of Akavir are mostly considered beast races by Aldmer including the Ayleids. As such their creation would have been as part of the general flora and fauna of Nirn and not worthy of specific mention, as Phil suggests.

The Anuad is the only source that describes the original Creation comprising 12 worlds, as far as I know. No more information is provided about what races may have inhabited these worlds other than the Ehlnofey and the Hist.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
phil_t
Curate

Reged: 09/26/02
Posts: 422
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2019082 - 12/02/03 03:40 PM

Interestingly, the Anuad lists the Tsaesci of Akavir among the Wandering Ehlnofey that became the races of men - perhaps it is actually meant as a reference to the lost species of men that were hunted to extinction by the Tsaesci??

Phil

--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: phil_t]
      #2019222 - 12/02/03 04:32 PM

I agree Phil. It seems that it is correct to term the original men of Akavir, 'Tsaesci' after all. Even though the modern race of Tsaesci are indeed the serpent-folk.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Daedric_Priest
Adept

Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 377
Loc: Bal Ur, The birthplace of Molag Bal
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2019577 - 12/02/03 06:08 PM

I thought Lorkahn was responsible for creating the mortal realm, and he was punished by being trapped under Red Mountain.

--------------------
These Daedra Lords rebelled against the counsel and admonition of the Tribunal, causing great kinstrife and confusion among the clans and Great Houses.

-The House of Troubles

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Daedric_Priest]
      #2021547 - 12/03/03 09:18 AM

The Ayleid creation myth (see above) is alone in saying that Nirn was formed from twelve shattered worlds that came before.

In most creation myths, Nirn was created by the combined sacrafice of nine et'Ada (immortals) including Lorkhan, who was the originator of the plan to create the mortal planet.

But the Ayleid myth, like the Khajiiti, seems to be far more allegorical in nature than the more literal myths of the Altmer, Bosmer, Cyrodiils and Nords.

It is possible that the twelve worlds discussed in the Ayleid myth represent twelve et'Ada rather than eight who combined to create Nirn. Perhaps the Ayleids have a deeper insight into the mechanics of creation. It is also possible that it is an unreliable, simplified or allegorical narration of creation.

It has certainly not been included in 'The Monomyth's' sphere of studies and there is no reference to Ayleid beliefs in 'Varieties Of Faith', so it appears to have been overlooked by Imperial scholars at least.

This does not mean it should be entirely dismissed, but I suggest it should be read against the background of wider lore where possible.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aidan4
Initiate

Reged: 02/18/03
Posts: 73
Loc: Russia
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2021572 - 12/03/03 09:32 AM

Wait a minute! Who is/are Hist?

--------------------
...::Member of Forum Scholars Guild::...
--------------------
I'm writing from far snowy Russia, so please forgive my English...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Aidan4]
      #2021587 - 12/03/03 09:42 AM

Aidan, check out the Lore FAQ, question 8.

You will see some information about the Hist and the Ehlnofey and a link to more information about them both.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
phil_t
Curate

Reged: 09/26/02
Posts: 422
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2021640 - 12/03/03 10:06 AM

Oh gawd, dont bring the hist into this, its confusing enough as it is

--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: phil_t]
      #2022957 - 12/03/03 05:18 PM

"A large fragment of the Ehlnofey world landed on Nirn relatively intact, and the Ehlnofey living there were the ancestors of the Mer. These Ehlnofey fortified their borders from the chaos outside, hid their pocket of calm, and attempted to live on as before. Other Ehlnofey arrived on Nirn scattered amid the confused jumble of the shattered worlds, wandering and finding each other over the years. Eventually, the wandering Ehlnofey found the hidden land of Old Ehlnofey, and were amazed and joyful to find their kin living amid the splendor of ages past. The wandering Ehlnofey expected to be welcomed into the peaceful realm, but the Old Ehlnofey looked on them as degenerates, fallen from their former glory"

Ok, so the Old Ehlnofey were basically the first to arive and remained untouched by these events that created Nirn they became mer (Aldmers?/Aeylids?). The wandering Ehlnofey became the other races (men/other) and where changed by the hardships and enviorment in which they had to live in. The Hist were bystandards so they kept to themselves pretty much. It could be said that these wandering Ehlnofey engaged in inter-species breeding and created more distinct races that eventually made it to the land of the Old Ehlnofey (Tamriel?).

I think I understand a little more as how the Aeylids saw the creation of Nirn and how the different races came to be, thank you all.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2022997 - 12/03/03 05:29 PM

Quote:


Ok, so the Old Ehlnofey were basically the first to arive and remained untouched by these events that created Nirn they became mer (Aldmers?/Aeylids?). The wandering Ehlnofey became the other races (men/other) and where changed by the hardships and enviorment in which they had to live in.




Not exactly. Men came from a curse placed upon the Nords by a Daedra. The Nords at one point were mer and immortal. The Old Ehlnofey were the Aedra who make up the Aldmeri pantheon and the newcomers are also known today as the Ayelids or the Aldmer. I might not be 100% correct, but I do know that the appearance of mortal men was not a result of anything happening in the Dawn Era which is what Era mer originated from.


Quote:

The Hist were bystandards so they kept to themselves pretty much. It could be said that these wandering Ehlnofey engaged in inter-species breeding and created more distinct races that eventually made it to the land of the Old Ehlnofey (Tamriel?).




The Hist helped turn an originally unintelligent lizard man race against one another and the victors were granted the wisdom of the Hist and this is why the Argonians revere the Hist above any other deity. Don't ask me how a tree passes on wisdom, but I guess they were alot like the ents from LOTR fame .

Quote:

I think I understand a little more as how the Aeylids saw the creation of Nirn and how the different races came to be, thank you all.




Great! You'll find that the more you understand about the game, the better it gets (exponentially I might add). It's always good to see a new scholar take this great forum to heart

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2023026 - 12/03/03 05:37 PM

"Don't ask me how a tree passes on wisdom, but I guess they were alot like the ents from LOTR fame."

hehe, that was exactly my thoughts on the hist = Ents.

"Great! You'll find that the more you understand about the game, the better it gets (exponentially I might add). It's always good to see a new scholar take this great forum to heart "

me a scholar? I'm flattered, but I wansn't trying to be one lol, but I will take it as it comes. Just needed some info on the Aeylid creation myth and got mostly what I needed.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2023911 - 12/03/03 10:56 PM

Nael

Quote:

Men came from a curse placed upon the Nords by a Daedra.



Not true. According to 'The Anuad', *all* Men are the descendants of the wandering Ehlnofey. The Nords, Bretons (Man/mer) and Cyrodiils all share an Atmoran heritage, while the Redguard and Tsaesci Humans developed separately.

Quote:

The Nords at one point were mer and immortal.



Mer have never been inherently immortal, nor have Nords. It is reputed that Nords once had lifespans as long as Aldmer, but were tricked into a shorter (Human) lifespan by Orkey (poss. Malacath).

Quote:

The Old Ehlnofey were the Aedra who make up the Aldmeri pantheon and the newcomers are also known today as the Ayelids or the Aldmer.



'Old Ehlnofey' was principally the name of a lost continent. It was the home of the Ehlnofey and then of the Aldmer, which they either abandoned or which was largely destroyed and became Tamriel. Yes, Ehlnofey (lit. 'Earthbones') may also refer to the Aedric planets, but this is not referred to in the Anuad at least.

The newcomers or 'wandering Ehlnofey' were the progenitors of Men. The Ayleids were the Heartland (Cyrodilic) Aldmer who were driven out of Cyrodil by Cyro-Nords in the First Era and are now known as 'Wild Elves'.

Quote:

I do know that the appearance of mortal men was not a result of anything happening in the Dawn Era which is what Era mer originated from.



Men had to have come from somewhere, though. Their origins are certainly closely related to those of the Aldmer in the Dawn Era, even if you do not accept the Anuad version of events.

Quote:

The Hist helped turn an originally unintelligent lizard man race against one another and the victors were granted the wisdom of the Hist...



Where did you get this from?

Quote:

...this is why the Argonians revere the Hist above any other deity.



It is not known for certain that Argonians do regard the Hist as deities. They may regard them as ancestors, or simply as protectors of their life cycle - like benevolent spirits.


Mooseman

Quote:

The Hist were bystandards so they kept to themselves pretty much. It could be said that these wandering Ehlnofey engaged in inter-species breeding and created more distinct races that eventually made it to the land of the Old Ehlnofey (Tamriel?).



This is pretty accurate, according to the Anuad. There are other accounts of the origins of Men and Mer though.

Check out the 'Altmeris Creation Myth' and others in the Tamriel Gods section of TIL.

Also see the information on 'Yffre' under the Bosmeri pantheon, and take a look at 'Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi'.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2024070 - 12/03/03 11:50 PM

"Auriel could not save Altmora, the Elder Wood, and it was lost to Men . They were chased south and east to Old Ehlnofey , and Lorkhan was close behind. He shattered that land into many. Finally Trinimac, Auriel's greatest knight, knocked Lorkhan down in front of his army and reached in with more than hands to take his Heart. He was undone. The Men dragged Lorkhan's body away and swore blood vengeance on the heirs of Auriel for all time."

ok, this leads me to beleive that men (or closely related races) MIGHT of come from one of these 12 planets or a piece of one of them and crashed down upon two continents (Yokuda ((SP?)) and Altmora). I'm not trying to solve any one sided puzzle, but after reading upon the bosmeri creation, they were around in the time of Great Chaos , thus giving some evidence (credible or not) that MAYBE some of the races populating Nirn refering to the Wandering Ehlnofey could be from each of the 12 planets that the Ayleids refer to. This makes me to believe that we have to sort of read between the lines about where some races evolved from the 12 planets, again, thanks. (this is actually getting more interesting Nigedo, hehe thanks for the last link )

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2024920 - 12/04/03 10:40 AM

As I mentioned, though, every other relevant lore source indicates that there are eight plane(t)s besides Nirn, the mortal plane(t), and there is no suggestion that Men or Mer developed upon one of these god plane(t)s and were then transplanted to Nirn. Besides which, those eight plane(t)s are still in existence and have not suffered the fate described by the Anuad.

So for the Anuad account to hold any merit, it must be referring to twelve plane(t)s of mortal existence that were destroyed before the Great Construction of Nirn. This adds an otherwise unsupported element to the origins of the Nirn universe, which is why I tend to regard it as (as yet) uninterpreted allegory rather than solid evidence.

For more on the orthodox origins of the Nirn universe, refer to my study "An Introduction To The Wheel", which links to the best available sources on this subject.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Archived User Account

Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2025314 - 12/04/03 02:28 PM

Nigedo, you're pickin hairs and getting too mired in the details. In a roundabout way, the Nords (atmorans, whatever you want to call them) were LONG LIVED (which is immortal in comparison to men's lifespans ) A DEITY (daedra, aedra, schmaedra, whatever ) tricked them into their shorter lifespans. What am I getting wrong here? And one more thing while we're on this topic, since the true idenity of the deity involved in tricking the Nords, is it theoretically possible that it was Shor (Lorkhan) who tricked them? He IS known as the trickster god to some other races and if he was devious enough I wouldn't put it past him. I would give this idea a 20% possibility of being right, but it was just an interesting thought I had.

As for the Argonians, I can't remember where I heard that about the Hist but I seem to remember it from an old post from one of those sneaky Bethsoft employee anonymous posts but I'm not sure. We don't know a whole lot about Argonian mythologies but it almost certainly is centered around the Hist. Have I missed any important words on Argonian mythology?

Thank you for your comments though Nigedo, you certainly keep me on my toes .

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
Posts: 2594
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
Re: Some Clarity of the Creation myth? [Re: ]
      #2025520 - 12/04/03 03:48 PM

Nael, there is more than just a marginal difference between immortality and longevity, they are quite specific terms.

As for Orkey, we don't really know who that is. He may be Malacath, some have suggested his name is a corruption of Arkay, but I find this very unlikely - not so unlikely though as the idea that he might be Lorkhan (Shor), the most revered of Nordic gods.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)


Extra information
0 registered and 6 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Hayt, Freddo, sentinel, Miltiades, Hungry Donner, Attrebus, tegger, Umrahel 

Print Thread

Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Thread views: 226

Rate this thread
 
Jump to

The Elder Scrolls Homepage

*
UBB.threads™ 6.3

Click for Privacy Statement 2003 Bethesda Softworks LLC, a ZeniMax Media company. All Rights Reserved.
PRIVACY POLICY | TERMS & CONDITIONS | LEGAL INFORMATION | CONTACT US