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Aikrun koimassa
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Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec
      #1913918 - 10/30/03 05:18 PM

I'm killing time until GOTY hits shelves around here so I collected all 36 books the other day and read threw them all.

The way its worded seems to me like it's saying Vivec was a being of divinity from the very being. When he actually got his divine nature from the heart of Lorkhan. So my question this the books are mostly a lie not telling the truth about his life?

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Ratwar
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Aikrun koimassa]
      #1913983 - 10/30/03 05:33 PM

Good question?
Darn you now I'm going to spend like 10 hours thinking about it. grrrr...

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Nigedo
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Aikrun koimassa]
      #1914031 - 10/30/03 05:48 PM

Quote:

The way its worded seems to me like it's saying Vivec was a being of divinity from the very being. When he actually got his divine nature from the heart of Lorkhan. So my question this the books are mostly a lie not telling the truth about his life?



The Lessons are part of what the Tribunal Temple call the 'Heirographa' or priestly writings that show the public face of the Tribunal.

They are exceptional though, since they are actually a series of mythic allegories or codified, esoteric instructional texts, written as simple narratives so as to conceal much of their deeper meaning from the uninitiated.

The narratives themselves conflict with wider historical books on many points, but can provide insights into alternative views of events (e.g. see Sermon 36).

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Aikrun koimassa
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Nigedo]
      #1914185 - 10/30/03 06:53 PM

Ok some more questions.

Ayem refers to Amalexia?

Seht refers to Sotha Sil?

The ministry of Truth is actully Lie Rock one of the demon sons of Vivec and Molag Bal's marrige.

"But Vivec merely raised his hand and froze Lie Rock just above the city and then he pierced the monster with Muatra.

(The practice of piercing the Second Aperture is now forbidden.)

When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed."

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction."

(In the thinking if it was a real world) So say you kill Vivec would Lie rock fall or would the citizens love and Faith in him keep it there?


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cooldude55
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Aikrun koimassa]
      #1914353 - 10/30/03 07:44 PM

The books are obviously propaganda.

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Myrdinn
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Aikrun koimassa]
      #1914372 - 10/30/03 07:48 PM

I can only answer the first two... Nigedo and the others down in the lore continium of this forum are more adept at these questions.

Quote:


Ayem refers to Amalexia?

Seht refers to Sotha Sil?





Yes on both accounts; both "Ayem" and "Seht" are pronounced Daedric characters. Basically, those names are the repected initials for each being.
FYI: Vehk=Vivec

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Nigedo
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: cooldude55]
      #1915160 - 10/31/03 12:02 AM

Aikrun

Quote:

So say you kill Vivec would Lie rock fall or would the citizens love and Faith in him keep it there?



It is impossible to guess the answer to that.

Myrdinn answered your other questions, I believe.

cooldude55

Quote:

The books are obviously propaganda.



There is nothing 'obvious' about the Lessons. Uninitiates may dismiss them as Temple 'propaganda' because they fail to grasp the mysteries of Vehk's teachings.

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CttWalla
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Nigedo]
      #1915166 - 10/31/03 12:08 AM

Quote:

Aikrun

Quote:

So say you kill Vivec would Lie rock fall or would the citizens love and Faith in him keep it there?




Isn't Vivec immortal? didnt he tell you that? he tells u that i belive
he says something along the lines of "When i die i go into a different world i can choose to wake up in a second or in a year or in 100 years" please correct me if im wrong

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mafafu
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: CttWalla]
      #1915195 - 10/31/03 12:21 AM

Quote:

I collected all 36 books the other day




Every time I see something like this, I feel I must mention that all the books can be read online at The Imperial Library.

Quote:

Isn't Vivec immortal? didnt he tell you that? he tells u that i belive he says something along the lines of "When i die i go into a different world i can choose to wake up in a second or in a year or in 100 years" please correct me if im wrong




I believe he is speaking about existing outside of the Mortal World, Mundus, where time is meaningless. After he is disconnected with the Heart of Lorkhan, he is once again mortal and bound by time, but still very wise and powerful.

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Nigedo
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: CttWalla]
      #1915214 - 10/31/03 12:28 AM

Quote:

Isn't Vivec immortal? didnt he tell you that? ...please correct me if im wrong



No, you're not wrong. Vivec is immortal until the point in time when he becomes separated from the source of his stolen immortality, the Heart of Lorkhan. After that, he is merely a very powerful mortal and may be killed.

Whether the love of the people of Morrowind would allow him then to regain immortality is another issue, but I thought I would include it.

Edit: Great minds think more or less alike...

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Varana
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Nigedo]
      #1922949 - 11/02/03 01:16 PM

And for this reason, in my game, I made Vivec unkillable until the Heart is destroyed. (Not that I would kill him...)
Which should have been so in the original game as well, imo.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Varana]
      #1923414 - 11/02/03 03:56 PM

Well Vivec is Killable, he would just have to respawn in a second.. Atleast if you beleave this

Quote:

It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once.




Well this could be taken literally meaning, that no matter how long he choices to stay that only a second or something passes, or that Vivec just doesn't really care about it anymore, and that for him by now everything is the same, no matter how much changes.

If the first is true, your mod would have to make Vivec able to die, but also just immidiately respawn.

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Conan_of_Skyrim
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1925517 - 11/03/03 06:31 AM

plus even with vivec now being 'mortal' he could still use the telvanni method after all they too are 'mortal'

The lessons probably have some aspect of the truth within them but have largely been distorted into pro Tribunal propoganda

or at least thats my thought

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phil_t
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Conan_of_Skyrim]
      #1925791 - 11/03/03 09:53 AM

Propaganda?? Perhaps ..... but they have Meanings within Meanings within Meanings ..... only Lord Vehk could tell you all

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proweler
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: phil_t]
      #1927250 - 11/03/03 06:56 PM

these gods dont only get theire power from the heart of lorkan, but also from the faith thousands have in them. Its like the "ways of old from merlin".

explains why vivce kept the moon up theire, that way pepole would keep beliefing in him, same reson why almelexia set mournhold in to blight storms and also why sota sill was so weak they needed pepole to belief in them as theire god.

Also the reson why the deadrea can come back from oblivion, pepole keep worshiping them wich can be seen as the most easy from of cojuring demons (as every one is gifted whit magic) although they cant be controled.
Same goes for ancestral gosth, wich stay near the borders of the world by the dunmer belief in theire ancestors.


So I think that when pepole belief in theire god deadrea, ancestor or divine they give a littel of theire magic to them and to keep them strong, in an instinctive reaction, like resist magic or poison.
Whit out folowers a god will soon fall to his normal human beeing and if they have no power like the hart of lorkan to keep them alive they will disapear.

whoa, not bad for a fist atempt on metaphysica.

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Nigedo
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: proweler]
      #1928469 - 11/04/03 01:52 AM

You make some interesting points proweler, although I don't think these principles apply to ancestor ghosts (see 'Ancestors And The Dunmer').


There is a discussion between Vivec and Almalexia in Sermon 18 which underlines Vivec's own thoughts on the value of mortal devotions;

4 Vivec knew that his doubt made him the sword of the Triune and so he did not feel shame or fear. Instead, he explained and these are the words:

'Can a member of the Invisible Gate become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world's condition?

5 As the Mother, you do not have to worry, unless things in the future are so strange that even Seht cannot understand. Neither does the Executioner or the Fool, but I am neither.

6 These ideals are not going to change in nature, even though they may change in representation. But, even in the west, the Rainmaker vanishes. No one needs him anymore.

7 Can one oust the model not because the model is set according to an ideal but because it is tied to an ever-changing unconscious mortal agenda?'
(from the Numbered Version)


There is another very interesting comment in Sermon 13, 'The Second Lesson of Ruling Kings', where it notes;

The magical cross is an integration of the worth of mortals at the expense of their spirits.

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Varana
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Enternall_fish]
      #1929401 - 11/04/03 12:45 PM

Enternall_fish: You are right.

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Allerleirauh
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Nigedo]
      #1951558 - 11/11/03 09:35 AM

I would just like to point out that the sermons are, among other things, propaganda. Nigedo is right that they are not JUST propaganda, but they are in fact propaganda written to establish the credentials of the Tribunal. As such, they are to be taken with a large grain of salt. They are also code, poetry, deep messages about the nature of the universe and the reader's possible place in it, and a healthy dose of self-inflating balderdash.

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Nigedo
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Re: Question about The 36 Lessons of Vivec [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #1951617 - 11/11/03 10:19 AM

I agree Alli. This is the nature of the Hierogryphal teachings of bloated Temple theocrats, which have been well debunked by both the Dissident Priests and the Nerevarine. Such obvious readings of the Lessons are intended for the uneducated and carelessly religious.

The facts are that Vivec and the other Tribunes stole their immortality and did not attain this state through their own greatness as the Temple has preached and as the Lessons report. (A point that I unintentionally glossed over earlier.)

This is of little relevance when one evaluates the Lessons as philosophical lore without attempting to read their narratives as historical fact in every instance.

(Nice to see you BTW )

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