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Sheikizza
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Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1376705 - 05/08/03 07:48 PM

Since I first began my studies of the creation myths and the ancient times in Tamrielic lore, I have pondered what the true motivation of Lorkhan may have been in convincing many of his et'Ada brethren to help create the Mundus.

At first this was more a curiousity than a focus or concern. After all, his motivations mattered little after the fact...the mundus was created, exists and why is a moot point. However, as the course of my studies deepens and I begin to try to trace the history of events that have unfolded in the course of the past ages, and their meaning, I have grown aware of a disturbing whisper that has echoed in the back of my mind the entire time, rising in volume with the more I read, study and learn. That voice has been telling me that all the events of Nirn and all the plots of the Aedra and Daedra since the creation of the Mundus are connected in some unknown way...that there is a thread of deeper purpose and meaning inside all these events of history, and all the schemes of Azura and her Daedric Brethren.

I begin to see bits and parts of a larger picture of creation and the role the Mundus plays as I dig deeper. I see the Heart of Lorkhan as a central focus of all these events, from the beginnings of the Mundus, the events Red Mountain, the disappearance of the Dwemer and the nature of Karagnec's tools, the use of the Numidium by the Emperor and the Warp in the West, Azura's curse and the rise and fall of the Tribunal, the fate of the Heart and the prophesies of end times...somehow it is all ONE STORY, with one singular pupose and meaning. And I must discover what it is...

I see several things as being central to answering this puzzle:

1. What truly happened to the Dwemer when Karagnec's tools were used on the Heart?
2. Why was the Tribunal Heresy so important that Azura sought their destruction?
3. Why could the Aedra not destroy Lorkhan's heart after it was torn from him?
4. What was the true nature of the Warp in the West, and what is the nature of the link between the Underking and the Heart of Lorkhan?
5. Was there a Warp in the East at the events of Red Mountain?
6. What will be the result of the Fall of the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, and the sundering of their link to the heart?
7. What was the true fate of the heart when it disappeared from Red Mountain at the hands of the Neravarine?

In the end, I feel that all of these questions lead to a more important question that they are but a partial answer to:

What is the nature of the Heart of Lorkhan and what is it's true link to the Mundus?

That question, I feel will answer many of the reasons behind what I see as a great scheme by the Daedra, and some Aedra to 'undo' the Mundus and it's creation. But, in order to answer the above question, I feel we will also need to know a very important thing:

What was Lorkhan's true motivation in creating the Mundus?

Answering these two central questions I feel will tell us how and why all these events throughout history are linked, and why the Daedra are so interested in the Mundus, and so often hostile towards it.

I feel that in the end, the schemes and plots of the Daedra (and some Aedra) are to a purpose. That purpose is to undo or 'un-create' the Mundus...the question is WHY? I believe everything that the daedra do to influence history, every plot, every attempted invasion (such as of the battlespire), and the end times are to that purpose...to undo what Lorkhan began so long ago. Why can only be answered, I feel, if we know why the Mundus was first created...what was Lorkhan thinking? Does the Mundus pose a danger to existence? Did Lorkhan upset some delicate balance by creating the Mundus? I don't know...I only have questions and suspiscions...but the need to know the answer grows on me each day.

I would like to know what each of you feel was Lorkhan's motivation in the creation of the Mundus? What is the link between his Heart and Nirn? Is it Truly the 'Heart of the World' as he claimed when it was pulled from his chest, and what would that mean? Are the Daedra ploting to overcome the Mundus and 'un-make' it, and if so, why?

These questions have come to haunt me in recent weeks and months and I feel a need to unravel this mystery. Hopefully with your help.

Goddess Bless,

Sheikizza Icemane

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SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
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evelian
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1376816 - 05/08/03 08:35 PM

Wow. Great post.

After reading that, a thought came to mind.

-I'd almost believe the Daedra need the heart for whatever plans they have (or require it's destruction). When Sotha Sil made the deal with them, it seems ridiculous to think that the Daedra lords would fear him or the Tribunal enough to agree to his terms...unless he could use the heart as a leverage? Like I said, just a thought that could add to the importance of the Heart and a link to the Daedra in some way.

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Edited by evelian (05/08/03 08:37 PM)

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Sheikizza
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1376834 - 05/08/03 08:41 PM

evelian,

Yes, I had considered that as well. In fact, I feel that we may yet discover that the real reason that Azura began the chain of events that brought the Neravarine to destroy the Tribunal (ending the daedric pact with Sotha Sil?) and banishing (destroying?) the Heart of Lorkhan may have been explicitly to rid the Mundus of the heart and break the pact so that the daedra could invade Nirn and 'undo' it.

Thus, the Neravarine may have been 'used' as a means to 'destroy' the Heart that the Daedra could not do on their own and end the Tribunal's interefernce (and the pact) so that the Daedra could bring about the end times and the un-making of the Mundus...

Thoughts?

Sheikizza Icemane


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SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets



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evelian
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1376885 - 05/08/03 08:57 PM

Regarding this specific point, I think your 7th question about the fate of the Heart holds the most importance here. Assuming Azura had alterior motives for her punishment of the Tribunal (and I fully believe there are underlying motives), then the current state of the Heart would be very important - Destroyed: The heart must have kept the Daedra from coming forth to mundus - oh, wait, what if the Heart had some special tie to the world itself...
hehe...I was going to try to explain more, but it would require making a lot of assumptions I'd rather not make. It's so hard to get anywhere with the pieces of the puzzle you mentioned missing. All the pieces intersect, one requires another, so it's impossible to see any of the larger picture. We can only make assumtions and guesses. I think I'll retract my first statement about the 7th question being the most important. They're nearly all equally important in each case. Which is where I can definately see where you're coming from with an underlying thread that ties everything together. There's definately something; it's constantly hinted at, but just unattainable.

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-dredg

~Forum Scholars Guild Member~

Edited by evelian (05/08/03 08:58 PM)

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B
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377463 - 05/09/03 12:21 AM

My views are heavily influenced by those of the Psijic Order. My personal belief is that the Mundus is a proving ground for the afterlife. Men and mer reproduce and live out their lives. A select few “great individuals” transcend the Mundus when they die. Those spirits who were benevolent on Mudus go one way; spirits who were malevolent go the other. Each side is collecting warriors, so to speak: The Aedra are creating their “army” and the Daedra are doing the same. Eventually, the two sides will meet.

In addition, the two sides seem to "feed" off their worshipers. The more people who worship them, the more powerful they become (An Overview Of Gods and Worship In Tamriel). I think the Daedra Princes need the Mundus more than some might think.

The Psijic Order believes it is their job to influence this process:
In reply to:

Primarily, it is easy to grasp the necessity both of endowing good men with great power and making powerful men good. We recognize the multiple threats that a strong tyrant represents -- breeds cruelty which feeds the Daedra Boethiah and hatred which feeds the Daedra Vaernima; if he should die having performed a particularly malevolent act, he may go to rule in Oblivion; and worst of all, he inspires other villains to thirst after power and other rulers to embrace villainy. Knowing this, we have developed patience in our dealings with such despots. They should be crippled, humiliated, impoverished, imprisoned... (The Old Ways)


They use the force of change to their advantage:
In reply to:

In Mundus, conflict and disparity are what bring change, and change is the most sacred of the Eleven Forces. Change is the force without focus or origin. It is the duty of the disciplined Psijic [“Enlightened One”] to dilute change where it brings greed, gluttony, sloth, ignorance, prejudice, cruelty...[here Taheritae lists the rest of the 111 Prodigalities], and to encourage change where it brings excellence, beauty, happiness, and enlightenment. As such, the faithful counsel has but one master: His mind. If the man the Psijic counsels acts wickedly and brings oegnithr [“bad change”] and will otherwise not be counselled, it is the Psijic's duty to counterbalance the oegnithr by any means necessary [emphasis mine]. (The Old Ways)


Perhaps my entire view is wrong. Perhaps men and mer can never transcend the gods who created them. Perhaps we are nothing more than "religious batteries" to recharge the gods.

Lorkhan brought about the Mundus to create chaos or change in a system of order. Perhaps he is trying to upset the status quo and overthrow those of whom he does not approve. His Heart is definitely the key to it all:
In reply to:

But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." So Auriel fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea, where no aspect of the new world may ever find it. (The Monomyth)


Well, we know that last part isn't true .

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Alastor Grimwald
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377514 - 05/09/03 12:42 AM

1. What truly happened to the Dwemer when Karagnec's tools were used on the Heart?

AG: I take the opinion of Baladas Demnevanni on this one, they retreated behind the active principle itself. But they do still exist on Mundus, just as a force, and that force was partly responsible for the 'madness' of Dagoth Ur. This is just an un-substantiated current theory for me though, and is subject to change!

2. Why was the Tribunal Heresy so important that Azura sought their destruction?

AG: Azura was afraid. Her fear turned into anger. Her angered caused the Tribunal to fall, eventually. The Tribunal became powerful, they no longer needed Azura and the others to lead them. It is my assumption that when these spirits are no longer believed they cannot affect anything on mundus. They have to affect the mundus 'through' mortals, so if no one believes in them, they do not exist.

3. Why could the Aedra not destroy Lorkhan's heart after it was torn from him?

AG: I'm sure they could have, but maybe they had pity for him. Maybe Anuiel loved him. I cannot say for sure, myth is not my cup of tea.

4. What was the true nature of the Warp in the West, and what is the nature of the link between the Underking and the Heart of Lorkhan?

AG: The Warp in the West was caused by the Mis-use of Numidium, a Dwemeri artifact that was meant to control time. Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus are obviously not as superior sorcerers or mage-crafters as the Dwemer were, so accidents and miscalculations were bound to happen. I am not aware of a connection between the Underking and Lorkhan's Heart.

5. Was there a Warp in the East at the events of Red Mountain?

AG: No, the accounts of the battle of Red Mountain are all from different view-points of the same thing, so as the legends are told and written down through time they get changed a little here and there, which eventually gives them all a different account, based on a culmination of small errors. The only account of that encounter to take seriously is Vivec's. As we all know he was there. The last living Dwemer would talk, if he could.

6. What will be the result of the Fall of the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, and the sundering of their link to the heart?

AG: The Tribunal are mortal again, and there will be a merging of the Dissidant Priests and the Temple. They will eventually go back to their previous worship of their ancestors and the Good Daedra. Or so they like to call them. Or maybe this new 'End of times Cult' will become popular.

7. What was the true fate of the heart when it disappeared from Red Mountain at the hands of the Neravarine?

AG: I will put something from Vivec's own 'Plan to Defeat Dagoth Ur':

"The normal procedure for establishing connection with the Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades. These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature.

The Nerevarine will not be taught the secret rituals required to perform the third step. Instead, The Nerevarine will strike the Heart with Keening for a second time, causing its tones to diverge into unstable patterns of interference. Further repeated strikes with Keening will further disrupt the tones, with the ultimate result of shattering and dispelling Kagrenac's original enchantments binding the Heart, thereby severing the Heart's links with Dagoth Ur, and with any surviving Heartwights, and with the Tribunal. Destroying Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart will also stop the corrupt effusion of the Heart's divine power, and end the Blight on Morrowind."

I do not think that the Heart actually 'Disappearing' was foreseen by Vivec, and actually I think you were just supposed to break the enchantments binding the heart. So I think that once the enchantments binding the heart were broken, something or someone 'took' the heart away or stole it. Could the Daedra steal the heart? Did Lorkhan take his heart back? Or something else? I don't think we will know for sure.

Lorkhan created the Mundus because he wanted to make his father proud, although those he tricked were not pleased. I see Lorkhan as another Anu, and the chaos of the rest, Padomay. Just on a microcosmic level. Then again, I suck at myths. Take this as you will.

I think it is possible that the Daedra would overtake Mundus, even if only to un-make its folly. If they do, me and Lord Divayth Fyr have a lot to discuss.

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8thHouseKalamer
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377621 - 05/09/03 01:29 AM

I would gladly give you my theories on your questions, but people will just get mad at me again.

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Bifrost
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377766 - 05/09/03 02:19 AM

In reply to:

4. What was the true nature of the Warp in the West, and what is the nature of the link between the Underking and the Heart of Lorkhan?




In "Where were you when the Dragon broke?" Mannimarco claim that Arctus is Ysmir/Wulfheart/Pelinal/etc., the immortal hero who has wandered Nirn since the first recording of time. Moreover, he suggests that he has discovered some real identity of this god-like hero.

During the Warp of the West the King of Worms uses the Mantellan Crux to ascend to godhood. While we know little of this Mantellan Crux , the Underking (claiming to be Zurin Arctus) himself said it contained his soul or essence.

I would guess that the power of the Mantellan Heart came from whatever it contained, not the item itself.
This would imply that Arctus were no mere mortal, which leads to the inevitable question:
Is the Underking the Ghost of a God and no Man?

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8thHouseKalamer
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377822 - 05/09/03 02:36 AM

1. Through a loophole it fate, they now live on another plane.
2. The Daedric Princes wanted the Chimer and Dwemer to worship only them.
3. I don't have an answer for this one
4. Didn't play Daggerfall
5. No. No. No.
6. The burden of prophecy is removed. The Daedra will be the only worshipped gods again.
7. Most likely went to another plane. Might have gone to the plane the Dwemer went to.

I'm sorry if that offended anyone in any way.

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Striker
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377961 - 05/09/03 03:29 AM

There is an interesting part in the High Elf creation myth:
In reply to:

...With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations. They took names, like Magnus or Mara or Xen. One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a nature, so he could never last long anywhere.

As he entered every aspect of Anuiel, Lorkhan would plant an idea that was almost wholly based on limitation. He outlined a plan to create a soul for the Aurbis, a place where even the "aspects of aspects" might be allowed to self-reflect. He gained many followers; even Auriel, when told he would become the king of the new world, agreed to help Lorkhan. So they created the Mundus, where their own aspects might live, and became the et’Ada.

But this was a trick. As Lorkhan knew, this world contained more limitations than not and was therefore hardly a thing of Anu at all. Mundus was the House of Sithis...




It looks like Lorkhan made the Mundus to satisfy his own nature - that of limitation. And Lorkhan became part of this limit, since he was 'more of a limit' himself. So destroying the Heart of Lorkhan would be the same as destroying the world, from what I can tell.

-Striker

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Nazz
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1377972 - 05/09/03 03:32 AM

In reply to:

Is the Underking the Ghost of a God and no Man?




Somebodys been reading the hidden messages in Sermon Zero.

My personal theory is that the Underking is actually the melding of two "personas" if you will, one is Ysmir/Wulfharth/Pelinal the other is Zurin Arctus. It would seem that the two joined together as told in The Arcturian Heresy, the part where Zurin tries to effectivly soul trap Wulfharth. They also must fight for control of their shared body because in Daggerfall the Underking always said he was Zurin, but the Arcturian Heresy shows Wulfharth in control and the King of Worms also hints that Wulfharth is one with Zurin.

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The_Luggage
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1378004 - 05/09/03 03:47 AM

6: Although Azura was a little peeved at the tribunal, she really wanted to get the main threat to morrowind out of the way, Dagoth Ur. She is "Mother Morrowind" after all.

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Sheikizza
Curate

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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379294 - 05/09/03 04:01 PM

EDIT: I originally began to respond to each point by each poster...but I have had a change of heart, and have deleted my first response. I feel, as many of my own opinions and theories beyond what is stated briefly above are still developing and forming, that I shall not expound upon them here just yet...

The true purpose of this thread for me was to HEAR what each of you thought of these issues and questions, not for me to speak of my as yet not fully formed theories. Thus, I will eagerly await each reply and attempt to digest what is offered rather than debate it. I may have questions, but only to clarify your own views in my understanding.

I do find it interesting that among the views so far rendered, none are in line with my own proto-theory...which is noteworthy to me, but not unduly of concern at this point.

I eagerly await the replies and wish to thank all who have, or will respond to this call for ideas and understanding.

Sheikizza Icemane

--------------------
SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets



Edited by Sheikizza (05/09/03 05:56 PM)

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KaliMagdalene
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379449 - 05/09/03 05:32 PM

In reply to:


1. Through a loophole it fate, they now live on another plane.
7. Most likely went to another plane. Might have gone to the plane the Dwemer went to.




What supports your theory here? How is it a loophole in fate? What documentation you can read in Morrowind leads to this conclusion? The material I read implies they were destroyed, or they transcended to another level of being. Vivec says he can sense no trace of them, and his consciousness is a bit transcendent itself. Of course, he may be lying, but what would it serve to do so on this point?

In reply to:


5. No. No. No.




"That's not argument, that's just contradiction."

I wish I had a better sense of your objection to this than those you've offered so far. Most of them seem to boil down to "I don't like it, and you shouldn't try to talk about it." What is it about the events at Red Mountain that make you think it could not possibly have happened?

Alastor has reasons and references for his own disagreement (although I don't find them convincing or conclusive in denying the possibility).

The problem with discussion is that it requires give and take. Simply saying "No, this didn't happen this way," or "yes, this is unequivocally what happened" leaves little room to actually address what you're saying. This is likely part of the reason people don't really give your posts much attention, and react poorly when they do. Coming around and just saying "You're wrong" or even "this is wrong" and repeating it over and over gets nowhere.

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teggerModerator
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379460 - 05/09/03 05:39 PM

I think Kali is right. You're opinions are as valid as anyone else's, but it's hard to respond to what appears to be brief assertions of "facts" (which may or may not be the case as you present them). If you could present them as your theories/opinions, and expound a bit upon your reasons, it would give folks some room to discuss it.

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Sheikizza
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered [Re: B]
      #1379551 - 05/09/03 06:23 PM

B,

As a clarification of how you view the Psijic doctrines, I have a question:

What, in your opinion, is the nature of man and mer? Meaning, do you see man and mer as created, or as decended? Do you believe that man and mer are merely a part of a larger spiritual whole, or are they seperated from spirit by the Mundus?

In our real world this has always been the key point that sperated most western religions (like Judeo-Islamic-Christianity, etc...) from the eastern religions (like Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, etc...) and I see it also as an important factor in TES lore as well.

The Monomyth states that the Aldmeri view is that creation of the Mundus severed the link of mortals to spirit...yet also says that the Aldmeri believe that they are the decendants of the Gods themselves. This seems an odd mixture of the two earthly views and I have a hard time reconciling it. Not created and yet seperate from the whole...to me that is contridictory and illogical.

Your thoughts on the Psijic views of this point would be appreciated.

Sheikizza

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SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets



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Sheikizza
Curate

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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379579 - 05/09/03 06:41 PM

Alastor,

In reply to:

AG: The Warp in the West was caused by the Mis-use of Numidium, a Dwemeri artifact that was meant to control time. Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus are obviously not as superior sorcerers or mage-crafters as the Dwemer were, so accidents and miscalculations were bound to happen. I am not aware of a connection between the Underking and Lorkhan's Heart.




Does this mean that you do not believe there is any connection between the Mantella and the Heart of Lorkhan?

If the Numidium was designed to be powered by the heart of Lorkhan when the Dwemer priests created it, and the Mantella was able (even if only partially) to operate the brass god, then how can that be explained if not by some link between the Mantella and the Heart? I have always seen that a connection must be there...otherwise the Numidium would not have worked at all, as I can understand it.

If no link exists between the Mantella and the Heart of Lorkhan then the success of the Mantella to operate the Numidium suggests to me only two possible answers:
1. The Dwemer were utterly confused when they created the Numidium and the Heart was not needed, but rather some other power source that was also in the Mantella. This seems very unlikely to me as they were it's creators...if they did not understand it, who would?
2. Any powerful soul could be used to power the Numidium and Lorkhan's heart had nothing to do with it at all, and people have utterly misunderstood any implied or written connection between the Heart and Numidium. This also seems totally unbelievable to me, as it seems very clear from all the Dwemer did, and from Dagoth Ur's plans to create a second Numidium (Akulakhan) that the Heart WAS needed and linked to this brass god.

As well, if we believe the King of Worms when he claims to have attained a similar state of 'godhood' by using the Mantella as what the Tribunal has done with using Lorkhan's heart, then does this not imply and necessitate a link between the two?

I would be very interested in hearing your views on these issues, as I cannot explain the use of the Numidium by Tiber Septim to forge the empire if the Mantella did not have some link to or share some aspect of the Heart of Lorkhan. (I have my own theory of WHAT that link is, but shall not expound upon it now as it gets into who the Underking, Wulfharth, and Arctus really are and is not a fully-formed theory as yet).

Sheikizza

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SHEIKIZZA ICEMANE
Lost and Wandering Soul
Seeker of Ancient Knowledge
Bearer of Dark Secrets



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Sheikizza
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379595 - 05/09/03 06:50 PM

8thHouseKalamer,


In reply to:

Through a loophole it fate, they now live on another plane.




I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by this, or in what respect you you use the word 'fate'. Perhaps if you could elaborate on this particular point for me, so that I might understand better exactly what you propose? What is the loophole you refer to, and what do you mean by 'fate'? What 'plane' do you see them being in?

Also, do you believe that what happened to them was their intention? Or was the effects of the use of the tools unexpected for them?

I appreciate the contribution...

Sheikizza

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Edited by Sheikizza (05/09/03 06:51 PM)

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evelian
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379660 - 05/09/03 07:21 PM

In reply to:

I would be very interested in hearing your views on these issues, as I cannot explain the use of the Numidium by Tiber Septim to forge the empire if the Mantella did not have some link to or share some aspect of the Heart of Lorkhan. (I have my own theory of WHAT that link is, but shall not expound upon it now as it gets into who the Underking, Wulfharth, and Arctus really are and is not a fully-formed theory as yet).




It is my personal belief that this character(s) is indeed Lorkhan, or what remains of him. If it's true, the connection between the Mantella and the Heart itself is profound. But if this were true, I cannot find exactly how his actions in the mortal plane coincide with his original motivations and the aspect of limitation.

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evelian
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379684 - 05/09/03 07:33 PM

Additionally, I'd like to post this. I know we've probably all read it, but in light of the current discussion, there is merit in re-reading it:

In reply to:

Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.

And what of the Warp in the West, where it is said six Anumiduma were seen in six different places at once, each one carving out a different mortal's destiny? We could see that High Rock is unified no more, that the flags of Nova Orsinium are real, that the Sload Priests talk to their new God of Worms, and none of them serve the sick heir of the Septim line; we could see all this and know that it is true. This Warp is but a realization of the trap that is the Gray Maybe, and that champion of release, the Brass God, has but reminded us again what the failure of his misuse means in the Arena Mundus.




I'm still thinking about it...and I'm sure someone will post better theories than mine before I finish them anyways

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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379723 - 05/09/03 08:00 PM

Evelian, from what document did you quote in that post? I've probably seen it before, but it must have been some time ago, as I don't remember it. I'd like to read (or re-read) it in its entirety.

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evelian
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379730 - 05/09/03 08:03 PM

Here you go. The part I took is a ways down there.

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Creepy ShadowLady

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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379741 - 05/09/03 08:10 PM

Thanks!

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evelian
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379784 - 05/09/03 08:30 PM

The following is assuming the text is truth, which I will do for now, or it will be too hard (for me) to analize by itself.

The Prime Gestalt: Not sure what this means exactly...the definition for gestalt is: 'a configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that it cannot be described merely as a sum of its parts.'

He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe. The first to see him...: Is this to say that perhaps Lorkhan included a loophole to get out of Mundus? Also, it says Kagrenac was the first to SEE him. This could be a figure of speech, meaning he was the first to discover the "loophole" (for lack of a better term).

and the world shuddered as they split: If Lorkhan were in fact the Underking, or as described here, the Enantiomorph, than this line would seem to hold a little importance.

the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul. : I can think of a hundred possibilities to what this could mean, so I think I'll leave it alone.

The last paragraph seems to make the connection to the Warp in the West and the Heart. This Warp is but a realization of the trap that is the Gray Maybe, and that champion of release, the Brass God, has but reminded us again what the failure of his misuse means in the Arena Mundus. The Heart and the Mantella of Arctus' soul both were able to create profound effects. As a side note, the phrasing Arena Mundus, in my mind, supports B's earlier stated theory.

I have a lot more thoughts on the matter, but not anything that makes enough sense to post.

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Nazz
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1379913 - 05/09/03 09:17 PM

Ok here is my take on your questions:

1. I still haven't come to a conclusion on that one to many of the possiblities seem too plausable IMO to decide right now.
2. I don't think it was their heresy that was important. I think she wants them gone because they along with Dagoth Ur are a threat to the Daedras power.
3. Because I believe that the heart of Lorkhan is truly the heart of the world its destruction would mean the end of Nirn and the Aedra with it.
4. I think the warp was caused by the use of the Totem of Tiber Septim being used by someone it was not designed to be used by. I don't know if there is a link except that the part of the underking that is Wulfharth, see my first post, wants Lorkhan to regain his heart.
5. I would say its possible
6. Death and destruction
7. It was returned to Lorkhan where ever he is.


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B
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1380475 - 05/10/03 12:52 AM

Sheikizza,

I must thank you for being kind to my previous post. After I posted it and read through it a few hours later, I realized that my words really didn’t contribute to you initial post. In fact, they seemed to be slightly off topic...and for that I apologize.

Let me continue by saying that I am pleased that you tolerate my words. I think I know a little bit about how you feel about the Psijic Order’s beliefs and their similarities to Humanism. I know very little about Humanism for I have just start reading up on that subject, but that is neither here nor there.

From what I have read, I have found the Psijic Order’s beliefs to be filled with contradictions. I think that is why I find it to be so interesting. I cannot figure out if I am missing something or if the various sources simply don’t mesh. I have spent months trying to figure out all of what I consider to be discrepancies in the various doctrines. I have had some luck in my mind, but none of it can be confirmed through an in-game source; therefore, they cannot be presented as fact.

I like to view Tamriel through the “eyes” of the Order. When I present certain beliefs, I am not arguing that they have it “right.” I am merely stating what I believe the Order would believe. In truth, the Order may have it all wrong.

Now on to your question:
In reply to:

What, in your opinion, is the nature of man and mer? Meaning, do you see man and mer as created, or as decended? Do you believe that man and mer are merely a part of a larger spiritual whole, or are they seperated from spirit by the Mundus?


This is a good question. I think the answer is a little of both. In my opinion, I think the Psijic Order believes that they are related to the divine spirits, but not “permanently” separated. While on Mundus, I think that members of the Order feel that they are in a corporal form, but they are still linked to their ancestors who are always around to guide them (The Old Ways). Could it be similar to some of the eastern beliefs? China, perhaps (You are more knowledgeable than I am on this subject). I believe that they believe that in life they are in contact with the spiritual whole, but more importantly, in death they can return to the spiritual whole.

In reply to:

The Monomyth states that the Aldmeri view is that creation of the Mundus severed the link of mortals to spirit...yet also says that the Aldmeri believe that they are the decendants of the Gods themselves. This seems an odd mixture of the two earthly views and I have a hard time reconciling it. Not created and yet seperate from the whole...to me that is contridictory and illogical.


You are absolutely correct, and I find that it bothers me, too. This is one of the things that confuses me about the Psijic Order. In the “The Myth of Aurbis” section of the The Monomyth, it states that this view is “an attempt by Artaeum apologists to explain the basics of Aldmeri religion to Uriel V in the early, glorious part of his reign.” Yet, from what I’ve read about the Order, it doesn’t match what I believe the Aldmeri believed.

Several lines down it says “The magical beings created the races of the mortal Aurbis in their own image, either consciously as artists and craftsmen, or as the fecund rotting matter out of which the mortals sprung forth, or in a variety of other analogical senses.” Is that an Aldmeri belief?

Also, what confuses me is the fact that the Psijic Order works with the force of change and was organized to divine PSJJJJ or Padomay (Source of Chaos). I thought the Aldmeri hated the change that Lorkhan brought forth and longed for the calm of order and stasis (perhaps I am thinking of the Altmeri). Maybe the Aldmeri didn't mind the world of Anu and Padomay, but resented what Lorkhan had done. Maybe the Order was formed to divine the Old Ways and their Endeavor is to overcome what was done when the Mundus was created.

Sorry if I wasn't much help on the Aldmeri issue. I find it confusing myself.

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Alastor Grimwald
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1381493 - 05/10/03 06:25 AM

Sheikizza,

When I had said that I was not 'Aware' of a connection, I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't one. To be completely honest I am just as confused as everyone else when it comes to the Warp in the West, but I will bring something up here that is the source of my own confusion.

First we have the Heart of Lorkhan hidden deep within Red Mountain, which is discovered by the Dwemer. Kagrenac devises 'Tools' to tap the Hearts 'Tones' or Power. After the First Battle of Red Mountain the Tribunal take the Tools, so it is safe to say that neither Tiber Septim nor Zurin Arctus/Underking had access to them. Without the Tools, if as you say their is a connection between the Heart and the Mantella, then how was the Numidium in the West controlled? How was the power aroused in the first place?

Second, The 'Heart of Lorkhan' (if that is really what it is) was discovered by the Dwemer and is obviously a bit more mysterious in origin (besides various un-substantiated myths) than the Mantella of Arctus. How did Zurin Arctus know that the original 'Heart of Lorkhan' could be substituted with a Powerfully charged soul gem? Perhaps this 'Heart of Lorkhan' is really just a powerful 'gem' of sorts, and Arctus understood that, but I find it hard to believe. If you ask me this Numidium in the West was a counterfiet, and the only thing that Arctus divined from his studies of the original Numidium was how to create a really big Animunculi, powered by the trapped soul of one powerful enough to move such an enormous Animunculi.

How such a Warp in time could happen I am not sure of, but one thing is for certain, it happened. This is all I can say for now until I do a bit more research.

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Alastor Grimwald
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1381594 - 05/10/03 07:01 AM

The Psijic order has confounded me since I first picked up my copy of 'Morrowind'.

I was astounded, facinated, yet completly confused by their apparent contridictions and Aldmeri biased views of existance. Not to mention a good majority of the order are Cyrodiil and Breton now!

I think after the dissappearance of the Isle of Artaeum, something happened within that order and since then their 'actual' views of creation are deliberatly contradictory in order to keep those outside the Isle ignorant of the true knowledge they have attained. Deliberate mis-information to keep the order from degenerating into an institution like the Mages Guild.

With an Isle of Mystics who apparently know how to change the very weather to their whims, are permanent neighbors to Oblivion, and can dissappear for ages if they wish are obviously keeping most of thier knowledge from everyone else.

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Allerleirauh
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1382094 - 05/10/03 11:22 AM

Shekizza, are you at all familiar with the works of Joseph Campbell? I find the Altmer/human split to be a lot easier to understand in Campbell's terms. Basially at what Campbell would consider the fourth era of development of religious thought, there are two reactions to the creation of the universe, typified in real world terms by such religions as Buddhism and Gnosticism on the one side and Christianity on the other side. One regards creation as a horrible accident; the other regards it as the benevolent act of a benevolent creator. Depending on which view you take, Lorkhan is either the devil himself or the source of all that's good. Religions such as Hinduism and most pagan religions, which regard creation as encompassing both good and evil, belong to a different stage of religious development, and don't react to this conflict by dividing gods into good and evil. The Wood Elves and Khajiit would seem to be examples of this sort of religion in Tamriel.

The Anu/Padomay split is between stasis and change, between the perfection (supposedly) that existed before creation, and the necessary loss of perfection that comes with differentiation. Many cultures represent this moment of creation as a sacred act of rape by which the creator betrayed his own daughter from whom the substance of the universe is then created; so does Tamrielic religion, in which Padomay raped Nir, who became the various worlds.

In Tamrielic lore we have an interesting set of recurring characters; Anu and Padomay; Auriel and Lorkhan; Morihaus and Pelinal; and so on down to the Underking and Tiber Septim, the enantiomorph, recurring historic examples of this principle incarnated as mortal men. So in a sense the Underking IS Lorkhan; Tiber Septim IS Akatosh. That's the reason that no one can explain exactly whose soul is inside the Mantella, Septim's or the Underking's, even though clearly Septim lived for decades after it was created.

To answer your questions:

1) There are several broad hints about a Dragon Break, or rift in time.
2) Azura is not nice; she didn't need any special reason to seek the destruction of the Tribunal other than the fact that they were worshippers of hers who offended her personally by an act of hubris.
3) This is a scary question; one possible answer is that the whole Mundus would collapse and since the Aedra are tied to the Mundus they didn't want that to happen. Another, hinted at by the Dunmer, is that Lorkhan may not truly have been an Aedra; if he was a Daedra, he could only be banished, not killed, so keeping his heart alive was the best way to immobilise him.
4) From what information we have about the Warp of the West, it involved the hero of Daggerfall giving the Mantella to every possible recipient at once. I note that as a result the Underking is said to have become active in the affairs of men, which means he lied about dying a peaceful death.
5) No. No particular sign of one. One version of events happened; the fact that they are misreported by interested parties doesn't change that. If there were a Warp, I think Vivec in particular would be the first to say so, to blame the whole affair on that.
6) Go talk to Eno whatsit the prophet of doom in Tribunal.
7) A very good question. My feeling is it went to Oblivion or something like that. Certainly it could have returned to Lorkhan... the tales of King Wulfharth seem to suggest such a thing is possible.

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Sheogorath
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1382150 - 05/10/03 12:16 PM

In reply to:

With an Isle of Mystics who apparently know how to change the very weather to their whims, are permanent neighbors to Oblivion, and can dissappear for ages if they wish are obviously keeping most of thier knowledge from everyone else.




I think that's true. Some have suggested that Sotha Sil's bargain with the daedra is what caused Artaeum to vanish for several hundred years. I think it's much more because of Vanus Galerion's "democratization" (and capitalization) of magic, bringing some of the secrets of the Psijics off the island. They were suddenly threatened, and they withdrew. When they came back, the older master Iachesis was gone, and they were in a different world. In "The Wolf Queen," Potema mocks the Psijics, saying that their off-spring the Mages Guild is now much more powerful. Perhaps they feel their contradictory philosophy lends them some of their old glamour. Perhaps they are onto something they learned in their time away from Mundus.

After all, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

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GhanBuriGhan
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1382156 - 05/10/03 12:20 PM

Straight to the "heart" of matters, nice post, sheikizza. I would personally like to challenge the assertion of "Of Aedra and Daedra" of the "Book of Daedra", that the Aedra can be killed:
"As part of the divine contract of creation, the Aedra can be killed. Witness Lorkhan and the moons. "

I think the role of Lorkhans heart as a decisive force in Tamriel history is testament that this is not true - maybe a god can be changed, banished or entrapped, but obviously his force lives on. this seems connected to the idea that the spirits form as "urges", "sentiments", or "emotions" and are not entirely shaped or individuals in the beginning (See the Monomyth). so simply put, it may have been possible to banish Lorkhans shape, but not the idea (the idea of death and creation).

This is all nice and philosphical, but it gets complicated enormously that we have seen the heart as a very concrete entity in the world. But this could be seen as a symbol of the above idea - the form could be destroyed, but the heart of the idea remained. In fact his dualism of missing/being the most palpable agent of change maybe is simply the appropriate reflection of the principle he represents. If so, the heart still represents the essence of Lorkhan, and there is some hints that it is indeed, in many faceted ways, connetcted with these:
- Creation: of the Akulakhan, of the divine disease, of the Tribunals godhood, but also of their opponent
- Death: Of the dwemer, through the actions of Dagoth Ur, through the eruption of red mountain
- Change: in the constant creation of new gods or challengers to the established order (Dagoth, the Tribunal, Kagrenac, Numidium)

Based on these ideas, I think its fairly safe to say that the heart (or maybe a different manifestation of the idea of Lorkhan) still exists (in fact we saw it vanish, and Azura said it was "freed") and will continue to shape and upset the current order of things.



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B
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1384654 - 05/11/03 04:48 PM

In reply to:

Posted by Sheogorath:

I think that's true. Some have suggested that Sotha Sil's bargain with the daedra is what caused Artaeum to vanish for several hundred years. I think it's much more because of Vanus Galerion's "democratization" (and capitalization) of magic, bringing some of the secrets of the Psijics off the island. They were suddenly threatened, and they withdrew. When they came back, the older master Iachesis was gone, and they were in a different world.


When Iachesis told Sotha Sil that the Isle was leaving in Book Four of 2920, The Last Year of the First Era, Sil had no idea. Maybe Iachesis did it because of the deal that was made, but it wasn’t in the plan that Sil presented to the Daedric Princes.

I agree with you that Vanus Galerion’s starting of the Mages Guild may have contributed to the Isle leaving the Sea (Fragment: On Artaeum). Some people have speculated that the Psijics may have done something similar to what the Dwemer had done. They also believe that the Order’s return might mean that the Dwemer may someday return. IF the Psijic Order accomplished something similar to the Dwemer, it was certainly done without the Heart. Whether or not there is a connection remains to be seen.

In reply to:

In "The Wolf Queen," Potema mocks the Psijics, saying that their off-spring the Mages Guild is now much more powerful. Perhaps they feel their contradictory philosophy lends them some of their old glamour. Perhaps they are onto something they learned in their time away from Mundus.


Yes, I think Potema said that about the Order to get Iachesis to go along with her plan. It was like she was saying to him, “You couldn’t help even if you wanted to because the Order isn’t what is used to be.” Iachesis' pride might have gotten the best of him, and he agreed to help (The Wolf Queen, Book Four).

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B
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1384665 - 05/11/03 05:00 PM

Ghan, I understand what you are saying, and I agree on many levels. I don’t think the Heart was destroyed nor have we seen the last of its effects on the Mundus.

As far as the Aedra being killed, it is difficult to tell, but I kind of agree with you. I would like some proof that they can be killed. The only proof offered in the Aedra and Daedra is “Lorkhan and the moons.” But has Lorkhan really been killed? If you believe the The Monomyth, then “...Lorkhan is separated from his divine center, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation of the et'Ada.” If he is wandering around looking for his Heart, then I wouldn't consider him to be dead.

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8thHouseKalamer
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1384801 - 05/11/03 06:24 PM

His motives on creating the Mundus were so people could be put on it. That way, we would all have 4 great Elder Scrolls games and 1 average one. Just think what your lives would like if the Mundus wasn't created and you didn't have those 5 games...

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grislyatoms
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1384949 - 05/11/03 07:33 PM

The question here that interests me the most is:

Why does the tribunal heresy trouble Azura so much?

1. The tribunal heresy, if not the cause of the dwarves disappearance, was certainly quite intermingled with it.

2. Azura's sphere of influence is "dusk and dawn".

3. Perhaps Azura sees the rise and fall of the dwarves metaphorically as "dusk and dawn" and has decided this issue falls under her sphere of influence.

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Saruman123
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1385867 - 05/12/03 02:16 AM

Wow, when azura is the god of dusk and dawn i never really saw it that way, but if you think abou it, she was invovled in the nereverar's rise(dawn) and the tribunal's fall(dusk). I'm sure more people could think of more examples.

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ELDRiTcH_TES
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1387818 - 05/12/03 09:06 PM

I think it is better thinking of it this way: The fall of Nerevar, and the rise of the Tribunal (dusk). The rebirth of Nerevar, and the fall of the Tribunal (dawn). This makes more sense to me.

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Durandel
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Re: Lorkhan's Motivation in Creating the Mundus Considered
      #1393986 - 05/14/03 07:53 PM

Well Sheikizza, what's your proto-theory? I'd like to hear it.

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