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LDones
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Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars?
      #2219672 - 02/08/04 01:12 PM

It is no secret that the Third Era has been fraught with sudden, drastic change and upheavel at nearly every turn - of this I am thankfully not ignorant; however, having busied myself with some years of hermetic research into the goings on of several secret societies on the island of Vvardenfell and their innermost workings, I have emerged recently with a certain incredulity to find that many facts surrounding the fulfilling of the Dunmer Nerevarine Prophecies were in direct conflict with what I would swear was true not less than a decade prior - as though the world I knew were suddenly false, or perhaps more appropriately... changed.

I ask you fellow scholars then, in your kindness and genorousity, to enlighten me, if you will, as to the circumstances of these most baffling schisms in my education between the Warp of the West and the Second Coming of the Nerevarine on Vvardenfell:

1) Was the Daedra Prince Boethiah not identified with the fairer sex (female, to clarify) when last I checked? Is there some explanation as to his/her most recent venture into fearsome masculinity?

2) I recall the prominent metals and materials of Tamrielic weapon and armor construction as bearing different properties than is now commonly acknowledged.
-----a) Is Mithril in short supply, or is it simply no longer available in the Morrowind province?
-----b) I recall the armor of the changed Orsimer to be of a much heavier and more powerful construction, comparable to and of greater weight than even Ebony. Written records confirm this, such as in the account of 'How Orsinium Passed To The Orcs'. Is there a reason this no longer appears to be so?

3) When did the zealots of the Imperial religions catapult great Tiber Septim to the status of 9th Divine? Is there some historical account to describe this event?

4) Why are so many of the Daedra Princes seemingly completely absent from the island of Vvardenfell? Have Namira, Hermaeus Mora, and Clavicus Vile become so feared as to outlaw even the mentions of their names in conversation or Dunmer literature?

(Feel free to answer in or out of character - I just felt like being cheeky with some questions I genuinely have about the omissions and changes to the ES world between Daggerfall and MW. What do you all think of them, and what other changes went down seemingly without explanation? I'm curious to know... And if this has already been covered in detail, I apologize - toss me a link to a prior conversation so I can catch up... ).

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-LDones
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Nigedo
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2219686 - 02/08/04 01:27 PM

Good questions LDones.

I doubt that there are any official excuses for these apparent changes. If there are I too would like to hear them.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2219688 - 02/08/04 01:30 PM

1.) Boethiah is what gender he/she chooses. The masculine stance in Morrowind most likely reflects the more aggressive nature of his/her followers there. Boethiah seems to be the only Daedric Prince to vary their gender.

2a.) There are more useful materials available with lower costs than imported goods. BTW, that's a guess.

b.) It may depend on what type of ebony armor was exported. Was it heavy plate, like on Vvardenfell, or thinner plate? Away from Morrowind, the price would rise exponentially, so the usage of ebony would be as light on materials as would still allow for good protection and durability. It may even be that the armor is chain mail, rather than plate armor, and thus lighter but less protective.

3.) From what I've picked up, he's been more or less venerated as a demi-god for some time. The Talos Cult has essentially worshipped him for some time, and it may have been no small leap to slip him in as a god to help unify the splintering Empire. Although, weren't all of the Nine Orders already established in Daggerfall? He's more or less a fairly minor member of the Divines, and may not have had much mention in the previous games.

4.) Those Daedra were never strongly worhshipped during the time of the Chimer. No shrines were erected to them since they were not as important as the other Daedra, and so none exist today.

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Xanathar
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2219772 - 02/08/04 02:55 PM

Good questions, hard to answer...

#1 Boethiah is always female to me, this is just a design decision to make her as male. You know the anticipation thing... Sotha Sil (M) is the anticipation of Azura (F), Vivec (F/M) is the anticipation of Mephala (F/M) although in my opinion Mephala is also female. Almalexia (F) is the anticipation of Boethiah (which should be male). So Boethiah is now Male. Heh heh, I hate this...

#2 Well, I don't have explanation on this.

#3 I don't have answer on this as well, although I can point you to Storyboard. Recently we discussed this too.

#4 I don't know.

#5 Oops, no #5...

Cheers...

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LDones
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Xanathar]
      #2222860 - 02/09/04 12:07 PM

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I'll likely implement some in-game books and/or dialogue to address some of these in something I'm working on right now...

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-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles

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B
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2222938 - 02/09/04 01:04 PM

Your questions have received several responses, and I agree with everything said. Sorry I have nothing more to add.

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LDones
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: B]
      #2222954 - 02/09/04 01:22 PM

Oh, I hope it didn't seem as though I was being sarcastic above - I'm genuinely thankful for the input.

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B
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2222971 - 02/09/04 01:28 PM

Quote:

Oh, I hope it didn't seem as though I was being sarcastic above - I'm genuinely thankful for the input.




I know you are sincere.

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phil_t
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: B]
      #2223412 - 02/09/04 06:08 PM

Now where's Tedders with a very poor excuse for an explanation when you need him

Phil

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Tedders
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: phil_t]
      #2228535 - 02/11/04 04:35 AM

Iím afraid any explanations I could give would be completely reasonable and rock-solid in their logic, and youíll be disappointed.

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Nigedo
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Tedders]
      #2228557 - 02/11/04 04:44 AM



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phil_t
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2229977 - 02/11/04 05:19 PM

Hey Tedders!! <waves>

In that case, would you care to give us your rock-solid interpretations??

Phil

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ACT SMILEY
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2230213 - 02/11/04 07:24 PM

2. "Game Balance"

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moriarty6
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2230576 - 02/11/04 09:42 PM

L. Dones,

Your recent letter sits on my desk, and after a few evenings musing over Cyrodiilic brandy in my small library, I believe I may answer some of your questions. Any faults or incomplete information I accept as mine, and not those of the authors I have read nor your line of questioning.

2a) Mithril simply isn't imported to Vvardenfell. The Dunmer do have a history of military culture, but until assimilation into the Empire their armies were limited to what resources were available--chitin, Ebony, etc. The arrival of the occupying Legions after the Armistice opened gates of trade and allow the influx of the materials and armors of Men, previously unavailable in a land of ash: Adamantium, Silver, even Orcish after the gentrification of the Orsimer. And indeed during the first part of the Third Era, these armors were widely available throughout Morrowind province. But though the borders remain somewhat stable as the Third Era rolls on, the influence of the Emperor wanes*, the presence of the Legions is gradually replaced by dubious beauracracy, and trade (and thus the availability of certain goods) slows.

2b) A somewhat easier question to answer. Orsimer still make some of the finest armor in Tamriel, but it was inevitable that a hundred years in the Legions would influence their style of smithing to imitate the lighter-weight Imperial Armor. A hundred years of long marches and extended campaigns have taught the Orcs the value of medium-weight armor, though their work is still the heaviest and most durable of the medium-weight class.

3) Septim was venerated as Talos the Dragonborn shortly after his death in 3E38. It began as a small cult amongst the Legionnaires themselves**, then was legitimized when the sitting Emperor saw the obvious advantages of a state-sponsored cult that was not incompatible with the existing pantheon. He is considered a minor deity, somewhere between a saint and a demigod. Because he is not an actual "god" in the truest sense (i.e., not a denizen of Aetherius nor Oblivion), and is clearly a state-invented religion, it is no surprise that many of the outlying provinces would choose to ignore his presence in the pantheon enitrely.

4) The prophet Velothi led the Chimer from the Summerset Isles to escape religious persecution for having come to venerate certain of the Daedra Princes as gods. Simply put, not all of the Daedra Princes were worshipped. Daedra are not worshipped as a race; rather Velothi chose certain of the Daedra as patrons.

(Note: Clavicus Vile is in fact acknowledged in several places in Dunmeric lore and literature, and his Mask is even rumoured to rest somewhere in the vicinity of Red Mountain. But he was not chosen as a patron--thus he has no shrines erected to him. Rather, the Dunmer fear and loathe Vile almost as a trickster god.)

I hope this letter finds your hands, and contains the information you seek. Share this with your peers, they may have the insight I lack on various points, including my ignorance of the diverse representiations of Boethiah.

Yours,
Garen Arctus
Legion Captain (ret.) and Independent Scholar
Holy City of Vivec, Vvardenfell Province, Morrowind

--------------------------------------------------------------------
[O.O.C. annotations]
*viz. the opening movie of Daggerfall--"the provinces fight amongst themselves like spoiled children"--and the questions of succession hinted at in Ebonheart in Morrowind.

**This is comparable to the Zoroastrianism of the Roman Legions.

--------------------
"The war of the sexes is long over. We are currently enduring occupation."

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: moriarty6]
      #2230681 - 02/11/04 10:27 PM

Garen,

I find most of your statements accurate, though I do believe some extra information and questions should be added.

1. If the Legions influenced their Orcish servants so greatly to make lighter armor, then why is natural Imperial armor heavy? I believe it wasn't so much a transition to a more Imperial style, the Orcs simply after recent events recognized that more medium styles were more effective for the kind of situation they are now in.

2. There are many rumors that the Nerevarine saw an aspect of Talos Dragonborn at Ghostgate before defeating Dagoth Ur. If this is so, then how could Talos not truly have become a god? He appears just as it is rumored Mara appeared to the Lord Nerevar Incarnate, and before her Zenithar. I believe Talos indeed ascended to a more "god-like" status. He never attempted the Endeavor though as far as we know, so this indeed leads me to believe that he, through the divine power of Anu and the imitation of its aspects, was taken to return to the divine fabric. He then appeared to the Nerevarine as one of his aspects, as one of the other divine beings would.

3. I do not believe the Velothi chose which Daedra they would follow, but the Daedra chose them. As part of the conspiracy of the three deceitful Daedra (Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala), they plotted to lead some of the Altmer astray. Boethiah then taught the Velothi all the things they would need to become the three Daedra's puppets, from culture to architecture. Of course when the Tribunal used the Heart, all of that changed. Nonetheless, the people of Veloth didn't choose the Three "Anticipations", the Three chose them.

Finally, I do not believe the Daedra can be related to either female or male whatsoever, for they were not involved in the creation of Mundus or anything for that matter, therefore the rules of "male" and "female" are not applicable.

Sincerly,
Girai Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and citizen of the Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Nigedo
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2230877 - 02/11/04 11:56 PM

Girai,

On the subject of Talos and his aspect 'Wulf', you adopt a position most suitable for one who is himself a descendant of those human slaves liberated from the Altmeri, who so quickly turned their backs upon the very forger of the Amulet of Kings.

(Yet I find it most amusing that you choose to represent yourself in this place with the highest symbol of the Dwemeri apostasy.)

Talos Dragonborn was no Breton and the "ghost of a god is no man", which is the same thing. The apparent apotheosis of Ysmir to the level of the divines is merely the late Cyrodilic recognition of one most likely to be an immortal aspect of he "who hides in the religions of all men", much as I am sure this suggestion will displease you immensely.


Respectfully,
Nigedo
Student of Vehk the Master

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drakkarDVG
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2231029 - 02/12/04 12:54 AM

The sighting at the Ghostgate was likely just the "dead" god, checking up on his heart. I won't speculate about the heritage of Tiber Septim, nor Shor's relation to any mortals pivotal in Tamriels history. I'd guess the Imperial Cult is just a little too quick to slap legitimacy on their worship.

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2231194 - 02/12/04 01:53 AM

Nigedo,

Quote:

(Yet I find it most amusing that you choose to represent yourself in this place with the highest symbol of the Dwemeri apostasy.)




I use the symbol of Numidium simply as tribute to the forging of the Empire, of which I love and will be sad to see fall. I believe the Dwemer are almost as wrong as Vivec in their methods and take no position of support on their construction of Numidium, rather as how it was used to form the greatest alliance of all time.

Quote:

On the subject of Talos and his aspect 'Wulf', you adopt a position most suitable for one who is himself a descendant of those human slaves liberated from the Altmeri, who so quickly turned their backs upon the very forger of the Amulet of Kings.




The Altmeri are a classic example of the most privilaged children of the One Answer being one of the first to turn their backs on the truth. I do not attack their race at all, I simply believe they have simply chosen the wrong path.

The position of the Imperial Cult is also wrong by the fact they worship the Aedra and seek to appease them through "good works". This belief is wrong in its very essence being that they follow beings that are tainted and just the motive of their "good works" has become rather hollow. The center drive for these men is political, to appear like the divine to their fellow men, but this is wrong in the fact they should be focused on the divine itself. Out of a relationship with it good works follow, but only then can they have the right motive.

Quote:

Talos Dragonborn was no Breton and the "ghost of a god is no man", which is the same thing. The apparent apotheosis of Ysmir to the level of the divines is merely the late Cyrodilic recognition of one most likely to be an immortal aspect of he "who hides in the religions of all men", much as I am sure this suggestion will displease you immensely.




How you have come to this conclusion is beyond me. I agree that the Empire perhaps would add Talos to the divines out of sheer desire for greater power, but where are you getting these theories? Is it so difficult to accept that Talos simply returned in mortal form? How do you interpret "Luck of the Emperor". If it is Lorkaan, then why did he help the Nerevarine throw out of his reach what he could have simply took? There is no logic or basis stated to back the theory of it being Lorkaan, but there is plenty for it being Tiber Septim.

Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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SeiferVersion1
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2231550 - 02/12/04 04:09 AM

You guys are insane.

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moriarty6
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2231654 - 02/12/04 04:53 AM

[Hey, SeiferVersion1: Relax. It's all just fun and games 'till someone calls the Inquisition.]

Girai,

I shall attempt--briefly, as I am due at a Great House function in the Hlaalu canton this evening--to answer those of your questions which I am equipped to answer.

1) "Lighter" does not mean "light", nor "heavier" "heavy". Heavy as the Imperial Legion uniform can be (as I know from my thirty year's in this man's army), there is no question that the Orcish armor of old was a great deal heavier and more durable. When the Orcs remained content to dwell in the Orsinium area of eastern High Rock before the nightmarish days of the Razing, the absence of a need for long-distance marching made armor weight a non-issue. But necessity is ever the father of invention, and since joining the Legions the Orcs have learned to smith a lighter armor that retains much of its former durability while allowing for the endurance-punishing rigors of an extended campaign. I think, in all honesty, that we are both making the same point, so I will content to rest the matter here.

2) I have heard these rumours of divine visitation, and I credit them little. I have not had the honour of meeting the Nerevarine since his arrival in Vvardenfell nor since the attainment of his so-recent celebrity, and thus cannot speak to the credibility or lack of credibility of anything this Incarnate reports via hearsay. I will fully confess that if the tales are true, it makes a compelling case for the true apotheosis of the Dragonborn. But without physical proof or even direct testimonials, I must remain unconvinced.

3) This is entirely semantics. If a god appears to a prophet, has the god "chosen" the prophet because It appeared to him, or has the prophet "chosen" the god because he follows It and leads other people to It? We must content ourselves with the actual historical event, regardless of any motivations which are lost in antiquity.

May you find this letter's contents helpful, and taken in the spirit of scholarship,

Garen Arctus
Legion Captain (ret.) and Independent Scholar
Holy City of Vivec, Vvardenfell province, Morrowind

--------------------
"The war of the sexes is long over. We are currently enduring occupation."

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: moriarty6]
      #2231835 - 02/12/04 06:10 AM

Garen,

I find your objective statement very refreshing from the standard scholar's stubborn refusal of seeing logic. You maintain your position while stating in a logical and concise manner your arguments. You have just gained considerable respect at least from me.

Your answers to my statements and questions are quite satisfactory, and have left me quite contented. I hope you will continue to lend your unbiased point of view to the scholars of Tamriel.

Signed respectfully,
Girai Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and citizen of the Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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SeiferVersion1
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: SeiferVersion1]
      #2231977 - 02/12/04 07:20 AM

Quote:

You guys are insane.




I agree.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: SeiferVersion1]
      #2232088 - 02/12/04 08:23 AM

You agreed with yourself. How quaint.

Also, why would Lorkhan take his Heart? Throughout history, it has remained there. Most myths say that Lorkhan most likely willingly gave up his Heart. To take it away would kill all residents of Mundus, and that is not what Lorkhan intended. Whether you think him good or evil, Lorkhan never desired to simply slaughter his creations.

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LDones
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: moriarty6]
      #2232342 - 02/12/04 11:12 AM

Captain Arctus,

I thank you for your detailed and conscientous responses to my open inquiries to local Imperial sources. Your information has proved more than helpful. On a side note, as I now understand it, King Gortwog of Orsinium conferred with some of the finer Altmer smiths in Tamriel to craft the current incarnations of Orcish battle armor, largely for the reasons you cite.

On the subject of Daedra Prince Boethiah, I have now come to understand (after some confusion) that the traditional Dunmer conception of gender beyond the mortal plane is largely symbolic - particularly in light of current discussions of sexuality and gender symbols among the Sermons of Vivec - and the switch to a more penetrative male symbol makes sense in light of his/her recent mysterious resurgence to prominence at Khartag Point; though I must admit a certain dread at what the Daedra Prince's newest change of sexual focus (both in his own esteem and in the eyes of the Dunmer people) may mean for his/her future influence on Tamriel.

Masters Harkaanius, Nigedo, and others:
My sincerest thanks for aiding me in ensuring the information I receive is at its most honest and accurate.

The stirring discussion of Talos Dragonborn's purported appearance at the Ghostgate (unbeknownst to Armigers and Temple patrons alike) has also been educational, to say the least.

I consider myself - after the fashion of several recent acquaintances of mine that shall remain nameless - "Illuminated".

Louis Dones
Breton-born Dunmer of Dubious Distinction
Currently Un-Employed in Balmora, Vvardenfell District

--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles

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Allerleirauh
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2232556 - 02/12/04 01:31 PM

I venture the out-of-character guess that the good folks at Bethesda got tired of stealing the idea of Mithril from Tolkien's fantasy world and decided to stick to things they had invented for their own fantasy world. Not to mention, Tolkien's estate periodically gets annoyed about this sort of thing.

Re: Tiber Septim. As I understand it, the Amulet of Kings allows conversation with dead Emperors. It seems, given that this sort of thing is part of the way this universe works, that it might be pretty easy to figure out whether or not a dead Emperor had in fact become a god.

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Girai_Harkaanius
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2233018 - 02/12/04 05:29 PM

Exactly why I believe he is the Ninth Divine (in a sense).

As a reply to the "Lorkhan's Heart" topic, in The Five Songs of King Wulfharth the Nords and Lorkhan himself sought to recover his Heart. The Nords, out of their idiocy didn't know what they were doing. Lorkhan knew full well what he was doing, and if he had the opportunity, he would try again (if he still can). The fact is Lorkhan really doesn't care (or not enough to restrain his own desires), and really what do you expect?

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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drakkarDVG
Adept

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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #2233338 - 02/12/04 08:21 PM

Actually, now that I've thought about it, it likely was Septim, though I don't quite know how he showed up. He very well could be a god. After all, the Aedra themselves are their ancestors, so its not that odd an idea that mortals could become gods.

As for Tiber Septim being Bretic or Nordic, I'd say it doesn't matter, and that if he was Bretic, he must have been possessed of some Nordic spirit to have a thu'um, especially one so powerful as his. Has anyone done a study on the thu'm or has there been a discussion?

--------------------
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LDones
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2233536 - 02/12/04 10:14 PM

Quote:

As I understand it, the Amulet of Kings allows conversation with dead Emperors. It seems, given that this sort of thing is part of the way this universe works, that it might be pretty easy to figure out whether or not a dead Emperor had in fact become a god.




And if I were Tiber Septim I'd tell everyone I was a god, too. Whether or not it was true, it'd likely have the desired effect.

--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles

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Nazz
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2233919 - 02/13/04 12:32 AM

On the matter of Septim's godhood, I find it unlikely. I would not put it past the monkey cults to elevate Septim to such status whether or not he was a infact a god, if it would increase the mystique of their history.

As for Orcish armor, we Dunmer make more than one kind of armor. I do not see why talented smiths such as the Orc's could not manage to create both a medium and heavy type of armor.

I see things mirrored to my good friend Xanathars view, I think Boethiah has always been male and that those confused half-breeds from High Rock got it wrong. I managed to sit in on a summoning of Boethiah while I was traveling in High Rock many years ago and I must say he did not look the least bit femanin to me.


--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion

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Nigedo
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2234090 - 02/13/04 01:18 AM

Girai,

Thank you for your recent communication which has placed me in unusally jovial spirits.

Quote:

How you have come to this conclusion is beyond me. I agree that the Empire perhaps would add Talos to the divines out of sheer desire for greater power, but where are you getting these theories? Is it so difficult to accept that Talos simply returned in mortal form? How do you interpret "Luck of the Emperor". If it is Lorkaan, then why did he help the Nerevarine throw out of his reach what he could have simply took? There is no logic or basis stated to back the theory of it being Lorkaan, but there is plenty for it being Tiber Septim.



May I refer to you to the recently published researches of my learned colleague, Karnath, since I regret that my present duties leave me with little time to devote to the fundamentals of your re-education.

Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the Master

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Nigedo
Diviner

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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: LDones]
      #2234146 - 02/13/04 01:38 AM

Sera Louis Dones,

I am delighted that you may have found my words useful. I wish you all wisdom and discernment in your search for knowledge.

Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the Master

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2234270 - 02/13/04 02:18 AM

Nigedo,

I have read Karnath's paper, and gained a much better understanding of the beliefs of the Whirling School of Vivec, and Vivec himself's motives. He is carrying where Lorkhan left off. For Lorkhan to do what he did, he had to be mostly of Padomay so that he could disrupt the natural being of things to attempt to ascend. The Hortator is just the next step of this. Now everything is falling into place.

I've also never been so sure of my beliefs. You are saying we put together (1) Is, the Satisfied state, and (1) Is Not, the Void state, to ascend above them both. I'm sorry, but this is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard in my life.

Let's put aside the scholarly ramble. We've seen what happens when this Endeavor is failed, it's all around us. But there is a reason it's never worked. It can't! You can't put together the lust of Padomay and the contented nature of Anu and get anything but a confused mess (which is eventually going to fall apart, nice situation for Padomay). The very basis of this entire thing to try to combine the two to make a perfect enviroment is flawed just because while Padomay is around it will always lust for more. You seek something that is outside Anu and Padomay. It is these two from which the universe is made. Wouldn't you think the only options available would be what these two offer? There is nothing in the universe that is not consisting of these two parts. We have nothing else, there is nothing else, and why would you want anything else? All mortals desire a fulfillment, they desire what "Is" (and when they do things that support what "Is Not" it is hated and eventually leads to the one who did it hating himself). Why do you seek something that doesn't exist? That ironically "Is Not". You can search and search and search until you fall apart, but 1 and 1 still make 2 or 11, neither of which can be made back into 1. It's simply the way things are. Why would you want things different?

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Nigedo
Diviner

Reged: 05/29/03
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2234436 - 02/13/04 03:03 AM

Girai,

If I may, I will pose a question truly simpler to comprehend than those matters of import which you cast about, demanding slanted answers to your repetitive rhetoric.

Quote:

Why do you seek something that doesn't exist? That ironically "Is Not". You can search and search and search until you fall apart, but 1 and 1 still make 2 or 11, neither of which can be made back into 1. It's simply the way things are.



If you are so utterly convinced of the immutability of the two divine poles, why then do you so fervently seek to persuade others to the possibility of an existence without Change?

(I would also add that, in your signature, you have incorrectly cited Skeleton Man as the source of certain, famous [and no doubt entirely misunderstood] comments spoken actually by Xal, the Maruhkati.)

Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the Master

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Yeah
Curate

Reged: 10/17/02
Posts: 601
Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2234698 - 02/13/04 04:22 AM

"You can't put together the lust of Padomay and the contented nature of Anu and get anything but a confused mess."

The Aedra (if you believe certain creation myths) are indeed the mixed blood of Anu and Padomay. One could argue that the children were just a confused mess, or "everlasting imperfections" as a very wise man once said. But none of it would change the fact that beings were created from both Anu and Padomay, and that the beings created were extremely powerful.

There is another instance, perhaps. If Lorkhan is of Padomay then the two would share the same blood, right? And all mortals are created of Anu, or at least because of him, correct? Then when a mortal (of Anu) comes into contact with Lorkhan's heart (of Padomay) wouldn't that also create the desired effect of the 11?

One of the walking ways was achieved thusly by four Dunmer, and are they not worshipped as gods?

--------------------
Professor: The only thing I don't like about those governments is that they want to give all of our taxes away to the less-fortunate.

Fry: Yeah! The less-fortunate get all the breaks!

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Striker
Disciple

Reged: 09/28/00
Posts: 1501
Loc: South Australia, Australia
Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2234818 - 02/13/04 05:00 AM

Just a quick question... where does the "Is"(1) and "Is Not"(1) come from?

I would have thought that "Is Not" would be the opposite of "Is", and therefore "Is"(1) and "Is Not"(-1). Although if "Is Not" is the void, wouldn't that make it 0? In that case, 1 + - 0 becomes 1, although 1 * 0 is 0. 0 / 1 is 0 and 1 / 0 is infinity. This makes Anu and Padomay are both all and nothing, depending on how you look at it.

Indeed, if Lorkhan tricked Padomay into becoming "Is", that would stop the combination being all and nothing - reducing it to a static number, unless you take them away... in which case everything becomes the void (0)!

Well, that's enough of my rambling. It probably doesn't have anything to do with creation, but you get that.

-Striker

--------------------
Destination Morrowind
Don't click here!
The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine.

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2235173 - 02/13/04 06:24 AM

Actually the Endeavor works pretty well... whether the results are all they're cracked up to be is open to question, but it's by no means impossible to gain great power that way. It's not so much hard as tricky.

Quote:

You are saying we put together (1) Is, the Satisfied state, and (1) Is Not, the Void state, to ascend above them both.




Nope, nope, nope. That would indeed be ridiculous. It would be more accurate to say you divide one by the other. Even more accurate to say you ignore them both. Neither, not both. Transcending them, not incorporating them. To be slaves to both stasis and change is... well, pretty much the state mortals are born into.


Edited by Allerleirauh (02/13/04 06:37 AM)

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2235811 - 02/13/04 10:48 AM

Nigedo,

Quote:

If I may, I will pose a question truly simpler to comprehend than those matters of import which you cast about, demanding slanted answers to your repetitive rhetoric.




You have been citing Vivec over and over continually for who knows how long. Is it so hard to understand he is a lying politician, just like Lorkhan? That he just wants what's best for #1 (how ironic)? Upto date you haven't given a single good reason why my answers to the many questions scholars face are so rediculous. All you've done is throw around scholarly ramble, insult me, and not even deal with the actual topic. The fact is, Vivec was wrong. All he wanted to do is benefit himself.

Quote:

If you are so utterly convinced of the immutability of the two divine poles, why then do you so fervently seek to persuade others to the possibility of an existence without Change?




Because we came from an existence without Change. We never came from outside the two poles because it doesn't itself exist. Anu still is on it's own, it brushed, not dissolved. If it were such we would not exist now. Anu still lasts somewhere unmingled, and I believe that it is reachable. How to reach it? Well, Auri-El "ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane." He couldn't have accomplished the Endeavor, for then he would not exist as he is now.

Quote:

(I would also add that, in your signature, you have incorrectly cited Skeleton Man as the source of certain, famous [and no doubt entirely misunderstood] comments spoken actually by Xal, the Maruhkati.)




Thank you for pointing this out, though if perhaps you were putting together a logical argument instead of picking apart my signature, we could have an actual discussion.

Girai Harkaanius

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Allerleirauh]
      #2235822 - 02/13/04 11:00 AM

Allerleirauh,

Quote:

Actually the Endeavor works pretty well... whether the results are all they're cracked up to be is open to question, but it's by no means impossible to gain great power that way.




Even if it did work, then it would be only a cause for more destruction. Look at yourself. Think you'd make a very good god? I give the universe a week... maybe.

Quote:

Nope, nope, nope. That would indeed be ridiculous. It would be more accurate to say you divide one by the other. Even more accurate to say you ignore them both. Neither, not both. Transcending them, not incorporating them. To be slaves to both stasis and change is... well, pretty much the state mortals are born into.




Well, at least you're stating your beliefs logically. As far as the beliefs of the Whirling School go, it would seem "1" and "1" indeed do form to make "11", their attempt at not falling into either be wielding the two to make "possibility". As I said, I give the universe a week if it actually did work. Yep, possibility alright.

The fact is the lust of Padomay corrupts, even in the smallest amount. I've heard a lot about people saying the Aedra are no better than the things I argue against. I'd agree with those people. They are at least on the right track, but cannot succeed as we can at the moment at least. They do not make worthy "gods", that is why the Imperial Cult is corrupt.

I know I'm saying the same things over and over again, but frankly you are too. Even the "Number of the Master" paper only showed just how well Lorkhan set it up, and just how Vivec continues it. We all can agree that Vivec is a liar in practically any other topic, why when the Endeavor is refered to is he suddenly a Saint?

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Nigedo
Diviner

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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2236103 - 02/13/04 02:19 PM

Girai,

It occurs to me that our recent exchanges have outgrown their usefulness and so this will be my last letter to you at this time.

I have pledged myself to encouraging the better understanding of Vehk's teachings against the evidence and within the context of wider lore, which necessitates my fundamental disregard for the mundane details of his political career.

I do not, however, feel that I have a duty to persuade those who will not be persuaded of the efficacy of those teachings, having learned from previous experiences that it is futile to provide extensive arguments to one who claims to have "heard it all before". I am, in the final analysis, a scholar not a priest.

I have already attempted, elsewhere, to provide insights into the flaws in your reasoning and many have also attempted to do so here. The fact is that you have conjured an illusion of the natures of Stasis and Change, and of the reality of the universe, whereby you imagine that an existence derived solely from and within the sphere of Anu is not only possible but the aim and reward of all enlightened mortals. I find that this position is unsupported by scholarly study and untenable.

But I wish you all you seek in your endeavor.

Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the Master

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 113
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Nigedo]
      #2236969 - 02/13/04 08:42 PM

Nigedo,

There are just some questions your theories can't answer. Just because you have been in the scholarly realm longer doesn't mean your theory is any more legitimate than mine. Just because my ideas are unorthodox doesn't mean they are wrong.

Nonetheless, I understand your actions. You may consider me a fanatic, but you are no less set in your beliefs or desperate to keep them. We both have well thought systems of thought (even though you may argue) and we both will keep them.

Girai Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and citizen of the Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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TSBasilisk
Diviner

Reged: 06/09/03
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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2237024 - 02/13/04 09:01 PM

Girai

Just as being a junior scholar does not make you wrong, so does our being senior scholars not necessarily mean we are wrong. More questions are raised, you say? That indicates a good question. You want to answer every fact, and pull together a buffer against answers. But, in the real world, every answer raises at least three new questions. You will never have a satisfactory answer, because truth is not comprehended by us. We can't understand the universe or why it came into existence because we are imperfect. No mortal has the ability to know all there is, and few can even grasp the full truth of even the simplest concepts. Reality is much larger than we think, and no matter what we do to trty and grasp it, it will always elude us.

You claim that Anu remains. How can it? By changing even in the smallest bit, Anu is no longer perfect. To make a single imperfection in Anu is to obliterate it. Perfection is a tenuous thing. When Padomay and Anu collided, Anu ceased to exist as it had. And can you even define what Anu is a perfection of? Is Anu a perfection of form, of stasis, of anything?

The Psijic Endeavor does not make mortals into gods. Every mortal is part of a network of essence, grounded to Mundus by the Heart. When a mortal dies, the better part of them, which defines their essence the most, ascends and becomes a part of a new Anu. Anu is a perfection of essence, I believe, a mixture of everything that exists into one purity. Silver is "perfect" to some, but tarnish is perfect in and of itself. The worst and best are all a part of Perfection. Padomay disrupted the balance, and thus forced Anu to rebalance itself. The Psijic Endeavor is the struggle to perfect one's self, not to become a god. To ascend above Mundus into a new plane of existence where the mortals are no longer remember, not to gain power over mortals.

You claim the Aedra corrupt the Cult, but that is a falsehood. It is mortals who corrupt the cult.

There is a difference between you and I, Girai. True, I am something of a fanatic, and so are you. But you refuse to change. You cling so tightly to the idea of Anu that you cannot see anything else. You won't allow anything in to challenge your faith for fear it will destroy you. In a fashion, you ARE Anu. When Padomay finally touches your cornerstone of faith, and you are forced to reconsider, will you too shatter yourself into many pieces and try to rebuild? I have changed many times since I came to these forums, and continue to. My principles may seem set in stone, but 1000 posts ago I had only just heard of Anu and Padomay. In the future, you will likely see different opinions from me. But I doubt I shall ever believe that to hide behind a shield of rhetoric is the best course of action.

Harold Trontskii
Dwemer Archaeologist
Nchuleft excavation site, Vvardenfell

--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild

Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft

Edited by TSBasilisk (02/13/04 09:03 PM)

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Allerleirauh
Diviner

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Re: Lore Changes in Morrowind - Thoughts from Lore Scholars? [Re: Girai_Harkaanius]
      #2237260 - 02/13/04 10:43 PM

Well, Girai, you neatly ducked my question about the Arena and its purpose...

I can't allow you to dismiss little Vehk quite so lightly. That "lying politician" was a more humane and benevolent god to his people, while he lasted, than any other deity ever seen in the Mundus. If a netchiman's son can do that good a job, the Aedra and Daedra don't have much to brag about. Even now, stripped of the power of the Heart, with no possible benefit to himself, he returns to encourage and challenge the peoples of this forum.

I happen to disagree, not only with his methods, but also with his goals... you are, I believe, correct that the Endeavor does not improve those who use it, any more than a sword in the hands of a coward makes a hero. Salvation, if it exists, lies elsewhere. But, just as a coward with a sword is better able to deal with his fear than a coward without a sword, I believe all sentient creatures are better when not cringing beneath a whip. Or two whips, as the case may be.

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