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drakkarDVG
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Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom
      #1697811 - 08/11/03 12:42 AM

Hi, its been awhile since I've been around, but I couldn't stay away.

For a while ( a few months) I've been wondering about the large works of art in the Dwemer ruins under Mournhold. I took a few notes about them a few weeks ago, and they're vague, so bear with me while I get to the questions.

There are eleven of them, including the fallen one, which I will get to last. I'll go counter-clockwise from the entrance from the statue in the plaza. The first I was going to call a "masked warrior", but closer examination determined it may not be a warrior at all, so its the "masked figure". The next is a warrior, one with a long straight beard. In between this and the next work I have the words "multi-legged", but I don't remember which it refers to. Number three is what appears to be a tower. Number four is some sort of beast with a dark head. The fifth is a scarab or something, the sixth is a serpent. A red ash-zombie is the seventh, which really intrigued me. Eight I just said had a strange head, and that nine was a female. The tenth was a robed figure, possibly a mage? The last is the aforementioned fallen one, and it is a female undoubtedly.
What significance in Dwemer culture could these figures have? I know we'll never know specifics, but I guess I'd just like to know whether or not someone some guy was just like "Put in some weird looking stuff on the walls, or if these were were important figures or symbols. Could one be Dumac? Kagrenac? I'll come back later, I've more investigating to do.

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TSBasilisk
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1698116 - 08/11/03 02:09 AM

I know the scarab is the symbol of Lorkhan. That is probably the only thing we can ever be partially sure about with these.

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drakkarDVG
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1698322 - 08/11/03 03:38 AM

I beg to differ, friend.
Okay, Iím back with an exciting revelation. First though, Iíll just say that after re-examining Hearthfire Hall, Iíve found there are twelve of these pieces, and heres a brief analysis (skip down to #11 for the revelation):

1. Masked Figure. Actually it looks like it could be an Animunculi, or Dwemer construct, in the shape of a man/mer. If it isnít a construct, then it appears to be a person in either a full suit or nearly that of armor, including Dwemer boots. Some straps seem to be hanging done from it, only to go back up to re-connect with the figure.
2. Bearded Warrior. Wearing some armor, carrying a saber (!,?) and shield. Elven ears.
3. Appears to be a multi-limbed creature, insect-like, a previously unseen construct?
4. Tower or spire-like peak with smaller towers, two dark shapes at right.
5. Dark-headed beast. Behtmeri (sp)? Is that a tail I see? Pointed ears, but wide. Orc? Khajiit?
6. Scarab beetle symbol. Lorkhan? His heart?
7. A horned serpent (single horn), mouth open, fangs and tongue visible. Are those gills?
8. What appears to be an ash-zombie, with a beard and wispy legs.
9. A figure holding a long object. A weapon? Lower portion of work is difficult to understand. The head seems to be encased in a helmet which is attached to something that is not shown on the piece.
10. Scantily-clad female, long hair.
11. Iíve just realized that this is Sotha Sil. A mage in robes, the mask, the beard, THE ARMS! Additionally, the robes appear to have Dwemer script on them.
12. The fallen woman. Long hair, elven ears, long robes or skirts. She seems proud, whoever she is.

I think the presence of Sehtís image, as well as the scarab, may provide us with an idea of how important the rest are in Dwemer culture.
Give these a look, if you have the editor it may be easier than a high gamma setting and lots of levitation spells.
Okay, I'm going back to investigating after visiting you guys. The work of a scholar is never done, it seems.

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Edited by drakkarDVG (08/11/03 04:25 AM)

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mafafu
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1698613 - 08/11/03 05:20 AM

The Seprent Sep, of Yokudan tradition, is Lorkhan. But, I don't know if there is any connection within Dwemer history.

What makes you think that the mage featured is Sotha Sil? I haven't looked at it, so I can't comment on its resemblance, but I wouldn't think that Sil would be featured prominently in Dwemer history. In fact, the Dwemer disappeared before the apotheosis of Sotha Sil, so it seems unlikely that Sil would be included here. However, he was a contemporary of the Dwemer, so it's not impossible.

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ELDRiTcH_TES
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: mafafu]
      #1699431 - 08/11/03 10:43 AM

I find the mechanical figure very intruiging, it's possibly a hint to how advanced they really were before disapearing. It's very likely that they managed to create a cyborg in the image of a mer. Then again it might just be their newest most protective armour yet .

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Vireyar
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1700143 - 08/11/03 04:59 PM

I always took these to be representations of the major constellations: Atronach (1), Warrior (2), Tower (4), Ritual (6? - maybe whoever created these knew Kagrenac's plan to ascend the Dwemer to godhood), Serpent (7), Lady (10, or 12?), Apprentice or Mage (8 or 11), which leaves the Lord, Lover, Shadow, Steed (maybe this is 5?) and Thief, or whatever the Dwemer interpretations of them were. The Dwemer did look at the sky, and they had to have noticed groupings of stars. Perhaps they also noticed the effect that they had on those born under them, too.

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Nazz
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: Vireyar]
      #1700593 - 08/11/03 08:47 PM

I like that theory Vireyar, even though there is one more constellation than there is picture in Bams. Here would be my guesses at how they match up:

1- Agree
2- Agree
3- Steed It almost looks like a little riding area above the neck of the creature but that also could be another of its hands
4- Argee
5- Lord
6- Agree
7- Agree
8- Shadow
9- No clue
10-Thief
11-Mage
12-Lady

So that would leave either Apprentice or Lover for 9 but it doesn't really look like either, so I may have messed some of the others up as well.

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Gasfiend
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1700623 - 08/11/03 08:59 PM

Interesting post, though here's my question....why is the dwemer city beneath the plaza so radically differant looking from every other dwemer ruin. Sure it was their capital city, but in my opinion, the differance in architecture and general aesthetics is so extreme that frankly, it seems as though Bethesda merely disregarded what they created in Morrowind, and crafted an entirely new look for the dwemer in Tribunal. Also...anyone else wonder why there aren't any dwemer ruins (not even one) in Bloodmoon?

just some of my gripes...

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superbeast
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1700729 - 08/11/03 09:38 PM

Perhapse you could figure out if this is true by looking in the editor.

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Enternall_fish
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: superbeast]
      #1700744 - 08/11/03 09:42 PM

Well bloodmoon might be because it wasn't discoverd during the 1st Era, or pherhaps that it was to cold or dangerous for the Dwemer.

And for the change of the Architacture, i think its pretty much the same, only bigger and well it looks much better IMO, like it was build for royalty.

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drakkarDVG
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: mafafu]
      #1700994 - 08/11/03 10:50 PM

I'm back after more research, as well as some pondering.

Bamz-Amschend, Hearthfire Hall, the entrance to what we know of as a great city.

The works are called in the editor "Dwemer Slates".

I also thought it might be an interpretation of the astrology of TES, but they seem to have a Dwemer twist.

00. (What had been my #1) Looks to be either partially or fully mechanical.
01. The fallen slate. "The Lady"?
02. Seht? Only if our thinking about the timeline had been incorrect, or Seht had been alive and experimenting with his "apparatus" long before the Battle at Red Mountain. But I still see a resemblance with the apparatus, or possibly someone tied at the wrists. If you look closely at the edges of the slate,you may see this too.
03. Female figure. I'd guess this isn't "The Lady"
04. The helmeted figure holding something. Is it yet another construct? An important figure in Dwemer history? In Tamrielic history?
05. The ash-zombie. Or what I think is one. The "hole in head" thing seems too perfect. How much did the Dwemer know about corprus? And how long did they know it?
06. THe serpent... or a dragon?
07. The scarab is Lorkhan, but I think for the Dwemer it probably refers to his heart. I've wondered, why does this same symbol show up at the Redoran canton in Vivec?
08. What I thought may be a khajiit or an orc? I think the "tail" may be a staff or long mace. The pose is interesting, if it is a khajiit, it looks to be a ... what do they call the jaguar-men? But it appears it has raised its paws to fight.
09. The Tower? Maybe, but I think it also refers to Red Mountain.
10. What I thought may be a multi-limbed construct.
11. The bearded warrior. The saber gets me. Not many Dwemer or Dunmer-Chimer seemed to carry sabers. The beard and ears tell me that it definitely is one of the two races.

I've re-numbered to slates to match the editor, it now goes clockwise, starting from the same slate as I did, but now it starts at 00. instead of 1. The most interesting to me are #s 01., 06., and 11., but I can't ignore the others.

You know, I've never been that interested in the disappearance of the Dwemer until now.

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Edited by drakkarDVG (08/11/03 10:52 PM)

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Vireyar
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1702089 - 08/12/03 04:44 AM

First, regarding the lack of Dwemer presence on Solstheim, it was suggested in another forum (I think Morrowind Mods, but possibly Bloodmoon General or Spoilers) that there wasn't enough geothermal activity to support the Dwemer there - they do seem to be dependent on geothermal power. It might also be that a strong werewolf presence there drove them off (if werewolves lived on Solstheim at the time). Whether the Dwemer worshipped the Daedra or not, they certainly would have had to have respected Hircine's children.

Second, thank you Nazz, and I hadn't noticed there was an unequal amount of plates and constellations. The one I'm having most difficulty placing now is actually the scarab/Lorkhan. I dragged all the plates into a test cell in the CS, and also the birthsign tapestries (the ones that were available, anyway - oddly enough the number of birthsign tapestries matches with the number of Bamz-Amschend plates, but I am sure this is coincidence), and tried to match them up. The one that could be the Serpent (in_dwe_slate06 in the CS) seems more like the Ritual to me - it might be a bit of a stretch, but take a look.

So that would leave either Apprentice or Lover for 9 but it doesn't really look like either, so I may have messed some of the others up as well.

If the Sermons of Vivec can be trusted, at least in part, Vivec said something to the effect that love is an emotion of which the Dwemer know nothing. Again, might be a bit of a stretch, but the Apprentice fits more with the spirit of that plate than the Lover, and could explain the absence of a Lover plate. Maybe.

05. The ash-zombie. Or what I think is one. The "hole in head" thing seems too perfect. How much did the Dwemer know about corprus? And how long did they know it?

I think this plate is the Shadow, as Nazz suggested. I'm almost completely certain that corprus existed only after Dagoth Ur was exposed to the Heart, went mad, resurrected the Sixth House, etc. - which was definitely after the Dwemer disappeared. I'd venture to say that the only Dwemer who knows anything about corprus is Yagrum Bagarn, and that's only because he's afflicted with it.

10. What I thought may be a multi-limbed construct.

Looking more closely at this one, it almost appears to me that there is a humanoid figure at the very top - I can make out what could be his head. This might be a Dwemer version of the Steed - riding into battle on a massive war machine.

--------------------
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The Fire of Ashurnibanipal - Daedric treasures, Flame Monarchs, and maybe the start of something big ...

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Nigedo
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: Nazz]
      #1702443 - 08/12/03 06:35 AM

I would say that 9 (in_dwe_slate04) is probably the Apprentice. It looks like a forge worker, wearing a long apron and handling a heavy tool of some kind.

Also number 10, (in_dwe_slate03) could be the Lover. She appears to be performing a (seductive) dance.

That would leave the Thief unrepresented, though I'm at a loss to say why, so 10 could be the Thief, I guess, since it seems more likely that the Dwemer would omit the Lover.

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drakkarDVG
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: Nigedo]
      #1704537 - 08/12/03 10:47 PM

I've done a little more investigating, and it leaves me with more questions than answers.

If these do represent the birthsigns, why is one omitted? What sign could Lorkhan's heart represent? Are the stories that we hear about Dwemer culture true?
After all, most come from Tribunal sources, various Dunmer, and a few from others in the Empire. I wouldn't exactly trust Alexander the Great to give us an accurate depiction of the Persian court.
Could the Dwemer have been more spiritual than we are led to believe? Might they be a seventh House of Dunmer?

Anyway,...
00. I think we are agreed, this is the Atronach. A Dwemer centurion, possibly, a "cyborg"? Probably not in our way of thinking.
01. THe Lady, although I don't believe we have ever seen a real female Dwemer, nor have I ever read or heard of one.
02. I have completely abandoned the idea that this is Sotha Sil, unless as I have already said, our view of the timeline is fundamentally wrong. I do think it is the Lord, but also can't forget the bound or connected arms. The arms appear either mechanical or skeletal. Who or what does this depict?
03. The Lover, I suppose, and if you look, you won't see any ears. I think the idea that the Dwemer don't know of love is probably propaganda. The sermons are full of crap that I think Vivec now regrets writing, this could be another lie.
04. The apprentice? I don't know. Then whos the mage? If its the mage, as I suspect, then I can't point out the apprentice! What is it? I don't know, a scientist/mage with a mechanical arm?
05. The shadow? I don't know. It immediately struck me as an ash-zombie, but I was wrong before too, so once again, if we are right in our thinking on the timeline, then this may be impossible. So what is it? Even if it is the Shadow, what does it mean to the Dwemer? What is this thing?
06. The serpent. Is it The Serpent? I think so. Have the Dwemer encountered anything like a serpent, or is it just legend to them?
07. The Scarab. What sign could this be? I think it may be The Shadow, as in the missing/unseen god, but this is speculation.
08. What the heck is this thing? How does it pertain to the signs? Nazz seemed to think its The Lord, but why? I do think it is a tail, but what about you?
09. Is The Tower Red Mountain?
10. The Steed? If so, the Dwemer should have been an enormous threat to the Dunmer, considering all of their weapons. Also considering this was way back in the day, how could Nerevar have defeated them? If you look at the Temple shrines of Nerevar, he looks like hes no more than a tribal leader.
11. THis has me interested. The Warrior. Bear with me, please. Go to either the door to Akulakhans chamber, or to the door to Arkngthand. On both you will find the same imag, one that is very much like our slate here.

Notice that along with the presence of only 12 signs, that the slates are arranged on the walls 4/3/4/1. It probably means nothing, but seems unbalanced to me.

As for the comments about the architecture being different from the other Dwarven Ruins, remember that those were citadels, fortresses, and this is a "city". Go look at the Clockwork City, if you can, and tell me that it doesn't look like it was built by the Dwemer. Aside from the lack of Dwemer writing on the structures, the style seems much more Dwemer to me than Dunmer, and its too advanced to have been designed before by the Chimer. Could Sotha Sil have used an a Dwemer ruin for his city? Could his apparatus be of Dwemer design, or influenced by similar equiment used by them?

I'm beginning a more expansive study of the Dwemer, but I don't know if it'll have a satisfying conclusion. So many others have attempted this that I'm tempted to abandon its pursuit, but I'm not sure I can. Anyway, I'm a home schooled student trying to graduate early, in the next two months, and can't spend too much time on this yet. Yet . I want to thank whoever has looked at the slates themselves as part of this study for their active participation in what I'm now considering my current Scholars Guild project.

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Nazz
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: drakkarDVG]
      #1705137 - 08/13/03 02:37 AM

I did some more research into this subject and here is what I was able to come up with.

Each birthsign has a season and each season is assosiated with one of Tamriels months. The Serpent is the exception to this, it has no season but "wanders" the heavens attacking the other constelations. This is why the serpent has no tapestry picture it is seen as an outcast and a bad omen to be born under.

Hearthfire Hall seems to be named after the Tamriel month of Hearth Fire which is the ninth month and has the birthsign of The Lady, which is also the slate that is under the rubble though I doubt there is any significance to that.

I still think 02 is the mage. With that long wrobe with the dwemer writting on it it just looks like a dwemer version of a mage.

I think 06 has to be the serpent. Those look like teeth in the mouth area and it appears to have a snake like tounge as well. Even though it does bear a little resemblance to the ritual tapestry I'm going to stick with the serpent.

I can't explain it but 08 just says "The Lord" to me. I don't think that the thing your calling a tail is that, to me it looks like a sword sheath.

The picture thats on the doors in some of the Dwemer strongholds isn't the same as the warrior picture. Its kind of similar but they aren't the same

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Klinefelter
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Re: Dwemer art under Plaza Brindisi Dorom [Re: Nazz]
      #1705192 - 08/13/03 02:54 AM

im gonna address the question as to why the ruins under the plaza are so different from the rest of the ruins. the ruins under the plaza were sealed from the surface for who knows how long. the other ruins you encounter were not. they were open to anyone who felt like taking a gander inside, and as so, got filthy and rusty.

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Nigedo
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New discoveries shed light on this mystery [Re: Nazz]
      #1825941 - 10/01/03 03:16 AM

Recent research into the Dwemer language and, in particular, the Dwemer observatory at Stros M'Kai have cast new light upon this mystery.

See this thread for an analysis of the constellations represented by the Dwemer slates discovered in Bamz-Amschend.

The only Bamz-Amschend slate not represented at the Stros M'Kai observatory is Slate 06 which represents 'The Serpent' constellation, which has no fixed (and therefore no chartable) relative position.

The slate that is missing from Bamz-Amschend would appear to be 'The Ritual'.

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DarkKhala
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Re: New discoveries shed light on this mystery [Re: Nigedo]
      #1939280 - 11/07/03 11:12 PM

Maybe Sotha Sil was a Dwemer!

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TSBasilisk
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Re: New discoveries shed light on this mystery [Re: DarkKhala]
      #1940065 - 11/08/03 03:58 AM

1.) Where the heck did that come from?

2.) Why did you resurrect this topic?

3.) Sotha Sil was NOT a Dwemer. He was a powerful Chimer mage, who eventually asceneded to godhood. He was a member of the minor House Sotha, destroyed in 2920 by Mehrunes Dagon.

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Jimmithy
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Re: New discoveries shed light on this mystery [Re: TSBasilisk]
      #1944444 - 11/09/03 12:52 PM

What the hell do you need to move those switches? and whats with that 3/4 of the way done robot? I think that they were way too advanced for their time. I want to know what killed them and how can I get to that other dimension that the last remaining dwarf went to?

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TSBasilisk
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Re: New discoveries shed light on this mystery [Re: Jimmithy]
      #1944469 - 11/09/03 01:06 PM

1.) What switches?

2.) The Dwemer were experimenting with those big golems, most likely. You can find pieces of the same type of golem in Kagrenac's Study.

3.) The Dwemer were advanced because they studied the death of the Ehlnofey. In so doing, they discovered the laws of nature, which were created by the death of the Ehlnofey. Understanding those laws allowed easier manipulation and side-stepping of them.

4.) We don't know if they were killed or not. The common belief is the Dwemer of Bamz-Amschend suffered the same fate as those in Hammerfell and on Vvardenfell when the Heart was activated during the Battle of Red Mountain. They disappeared, and nothing else is known.

5.) The Outer Realms is where Yagrum went. How he removed himself and journeyed there is unknown. There are some locations where a person can leave the mortal plane and cross to Oblivion, but if the Dwemer used such locations is unknown.

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