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TES Construction Set and Plugins >> General TES Construction Set

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Illtempered
Curate

Reged: 03/06/04
Posts: 624
Loc: Ash Cathedral Tower
Anyone successfully cleaned a save?
      #2806336 - 07/15/04 04:29 AM

I've heard hints that Enchanted Editor can clean save games. Has anyone been able to get rid of doubling/entries not showing up with this tool or any other?

If so, how?

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Devil's Rock for Vivec's Soul
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ManaUser
Master

Reged: 06/01/00
Posts: 6094
Loc: Long Beach, CA, USA
Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: Illtempered]
      #2806353 - 07/15/04 04:33 AM

Sometime you can clean a save just but loading it in morrowind and saving again without the effected mod loaded.

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Empedocles
Disciple

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 1049
Loc: UK
Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: ManaUser]
      #2806486 - 07/15/04 04:57 AM

Works for me. Move your character into an outside cell (it can be one you have modified, but must be outside) and save, then quit. Untick the mod you are worried about then restart the saved game. Save the game again with the mod not running. Quit, then select the mod again and reload. That should cure most things.




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DinkumThinkum
Diviner

Reged: 09/20/01
Posts: 4731
Loc: Luna Penal Colony
Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: Illtempered]
      #2806497 - 07/15/04 04:59 AM

Quote:


I've heard hints that Enchanted Editor can clean save games. Has anyone been able to get rid of doubling/entries not showing up with this tool or any other?

If so, how?





The infamous thread linked from my signature includes a few posts describing different methods of cleaning dirty saves. Try whichever seems to best suit you and your situation.


And to answer the question in your subject: Yes!

I learned about dirty saves the hard way, back when I was just getting started with the Construction Set. Once I figured out what had happened, I managed to clean things up and continue my game. My cleaning procedure post in the Dirty Saves thread is based on that, plus information posted by other users.

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How to avoid the most common problem encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures

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Illtempered
Curate

Reged: 03/06/04
Posts: 624
Loc: Ash Cathedral Tower
Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2806728 - 07/15/04 05:44 AM

I guess I should have been more specific. I mean without actually removing any esp's. I've done extensive cleaning to all my esp's with TESPCD and TESAME, and no unclean entries show up, but I still get doubling, especially with items that have the float script attatched.

I'm familiar with your tut's Dinkum, and have found them extremely helpful in the past, but none of the methods seem to be working with this save unless I unload the esp in question entirely...and I don't want to do that.

I kind of toyed with the idea of converting the save to an esp then checking it with TESPCD. In fact I did that, but no unclean entries showed up, so I wasn't sure if I was heading in the right direction.

Edit: Ok, here's the part I don't understand. I unload the esp and go back to the spot where the doubling was occuring.....and the entries are still there. In fact, one npc is still doubled

This just gave me an idea though. I could convert the save to an esp, then just check the esp and delete those entries.

--------------------
Devil's Rock for Vivec's Soul
Screenshots

Edited by Illtempered (07/15/04 05:54 AM)

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DinkumThinkum
Diviner

Reged: 09/20/01
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Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: Illtempered]
      #2807436 - 07/15/04 08:40 AM

First, I'm a lot better at suggesting how to avoid dirty saves in the first place than I am at figuring out how to fix them once they happen.

In the Dirty Saves thread, Argent suggested using the Details list in the Construction Set to clean a saved game, and also mentioned that the Enchanted Editor could clean saved games.

And Nigedo posted a fairly detailed explanation of using TESAME to clean a saved game.

I haven't tried any of those methods myself, but you might take a look and see if they'll help you figure out what's going on.

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How to avoid the most common problem encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures

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DinkumThinkum
Diviner

Reged: 09/20/01
Posts: 4731
Loc: Luna Penal Colony
Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: Illtempered]
      #2807923 - 07/15/04 10:37 AM

Quote:


Edit: Ok, here's the part I don't understand. I unload the esp and go back to the spot where the doubling was occuring.....and the entries are still there. In fact, one npc is still doubled





My two bits worth about why they're still there, and the basics of doubling:

1. Those references that are still there apparently have Object IDs that are part of the original game, not unique IDs that were added by the mod. So even though the .esp file has been disabled, those references are still valid objects because their IDs still exist.

2. The reason you wound up with doubled objects in the first place: when you edited the mod and then loaded a save game made with an earlier version of the mod, the game no longer recognized the references in the save game as originating in the mod.

Reason: the references in the save game are older than the edited .esp file. So the game treats the references in the .esp file as new references, rather than the original version of the older references in the save game file.

See if this explanation is clearer:

This is similar to the logic that says a forty year old man can't be the son of a thirty year old woman.

The game logic is that something in a two day old save didn't come from an .esp file that was edited yesterday.

I would speculate that trying to keep track of when every entry in the .esp and save game files was created and edited would probably have required too much processing time and made the files excessively large.

So the game just goes by the date the .esp or save game file was last edited, and uses that to decide the age of the data in the file.


3. When you saved again, the game saved both copies of the reference, because it thought they were two distint items.

4. More updates of the .esp file and/or resaving would keep adding more and more duplicates.

Before I get in completely over my head on this (I probably have...), see this web page for more information about doubling bugs:

Fighting doubling bugs

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've seen a few posts about fiddling with date/time stamps to cure doubling problems, but I don't remember the details and don't have any links. As I said: I tend to be more interested in avoiding the problem than figuring out how to clean up the mess afterwards.

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How to avoid the most common problem encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures

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ManaUser
Master

Reged: 06/01/00
Posts: 6094
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Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2808272 - 07/15/04 12:23 PM

I think NPCs are a special case. The technique I mentioned often doesn't work on them, data of NPCs you meet gets saved in the same game. I suppose thats what cealning your save with another program comes in. But honestly, no, I've never had any luck doing that. I tried it with Enchanted Editor and always ended up with a CTD on loading the save. Theoretically, there's no reason it's can't be done of course, but figuring out how to cleanly remove an NPC seems tricky.

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Argent
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Reged: 02/05/03
Posts: 1847
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Re: Anyone successfully cleaned a save? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2810690 - 07/16/04 02:43 AM

Quote:

The reason you wound up with doubled objects in the first place: when you edited the mod and then loaded a save game made with an earlier version of the mod, the game no longer recognized the references in the save game as originating in the mod.

Reason: the references in the save game are older than the edited .esp file. So the game treats the references in the .esp file as new references, rather than the original version of the older references in the save game file.



DT has it in a nutshell . Just to clarify the technical reasons behind object doubling:
All objects in any given cell (references) are assigned an index value (FRMR subrecord for those familiar with the ES* format) that tracks which file the reference originated from, probably to ensure that new objects are not added every time the game is loaded.

When you alter the load order of plugins, the index value used to look-up object references can sometimes point to a file that does not contain the object definition; this is not entirely bad in itself, as the object reference is persistent in the save game file and will be placed in-game. The problem occurs when the plugin file that does contain the object is found further down the load order. The game does not detect an existing index value for that object (but is already in-game) and assumes it's a newly created reference and therefore adds it to the game. You now have 2 identical objects in the game.

The following is an extract from one of Farren's posts that is also included in the readme file I bundled with the editor on Euro-MW:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reduce a 5mb Save Game File to 1MB (major FPS increase and kills most "doubling"")
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This technique has some quirks like resurrecting all dead characters but does not break quests or change characters attitudes to you etc. The vast majority of space taken in in your save is NPCC (characters you've stolen from, killed etc) and CELL (Cells you've altered) records, so...

1. Load the save game

2. Turn OFF safe editing (Edit/Editing Options/Safe Editing or just click the symbol like a roadsign on the toolbar till it warns you and the symbol turns bright yellow and red)

3. Click the check box next to the "Cells" node to mark all cells.

4. Click the "Cells" node (not the checkbox) to expand it and show all cells and scroll down till you see the cell or cells where you keep all your loot (your home, if you have one). Uncheck this cell in the check box or you lose your loot.

5. Click the check box next to "NPCs Altered/Killed by Player" (NPCC) node to mark all altered NPCs.

6. CRITICAL: Click the "NPCs Altered/Killed by Player" (NPCC) Node to expand the node and show all NPCC record. Scroll down to the "PlayerSaveGame" record and UNCHECK it. You don't want to delete this specific record or your save game will be ruined.

7. Press Delete. All CELL and NPCC entries apart from your home and the PlayerSaveGame will be deleted.

8. Save your game. I got a 5MB game (LOTS of mods and Neverine) down to 1MB like this. Everyone I knew still thought I was the bees knees and I could walk around Balmora without feeling like a crippled snail on downers afterwards (much better FPS).


EDIT
DT: I just followed your link and realised that page already describes the above mentioned technique, only with TESAME. Both seem to remove the 'footprint' left by the player.

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Immersive Architect: Make Morrowind your world builder.
Morrowind Tech

Edited by Argent (07/16/04 03:10 AM)

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